Living Unapologetically with Rick Clemons

In this episode we’re diving deep into the power of authenticity, self-expression, and unapologetically living your truth with someone who’s made it his life’s work to guide others out of their metaphorical closets.

My guest for this episode is Rick Clemmons—a mindset shifter, closet buster, and all-around authenticity guru. Rick is the author of Frankly My Dear, I’m Gay, the host of two incredible podcasts Life (UN)Closeted) and 40 Plus: Gay Men)- which I’ve had the pleasure of guesting on, and a life coach for gay men who are ready to shed excuses, fears, and apologies to step fully into their truth.

In this episode, Rick introduces us to his fabulous inner drag avatar, Limonad Pop, and shares how embodying this alter ego has helped him tap into his authenticity and creativity. He takes us through his journey of coming out at 36, how it reshaped his life, and what it taught him about living unapologetically.

We explore what gets in the way of people’s authenticity, and Rick shares a powerful story that reminds us we’re not responsible for how others see us. Together, we unpack how fear and love factor into the quest for truth and how coming out can be a kind of “training” for queer folks to connect with their deeper selves—a practice that can transform all areas of life.

Rick also shares the framework he uses to help clients take big leaps of faith toward alignment and authenticity—whether it’s coming out, changing careers, or embracing life’s biggest transitions. And, of course, we talk relationships. Rick opens up about navigating an open marriage with his husband and how staying true to themselves has strengthened their bond.

Finally, we close with gratitude for the divine maker that made each of us unapologetically us.

Check out Rick Clemmon's podcast 40 Plus Gay Men Gay Talk here- https://rickclemons.com/coming-out-resources/40-plus-gay-men-gay-talk-podcast/

Connect with Wil Fisher here- https://www.wil-fullyliving.com/

Transcript

Wil Fisher  0:00  
Queerly Beloveds, we are gathered here today for some juicy conversations about all things spiritually, queer and queerly spiritual. I'm Sylvia. Wil gather rainbow, a spiritual life coach, retreat host with the most and a drag queen, and I'll be chatting with the most amazing folks, or simply sharings of wisdom on my own. If you like what I'm serving, please remember to subscribe so we can keep hanging out. All right, let's get super woo together in this spiritual AF, queer AF, cosmic container, and blast off. Hello beloveds, and welcome back to another episode of queerly Beloved. In today's episode, we're diving deep into the power of authenticity, self expression and unapologetically living your truth with someone who's made it his life's work to guide others out of their metaphorical closets. I'm thrilled to introduce today's guest, Rick Clemens, a mindset shifter, closet Buster, an all around authenticity guru. Rick is the author of, frankly, my dear, I'm gay, the host of two incredible podcasts, life unplosted and 40 plus gay men, which I've had the pleasure of guesting on a couple times. And he's a life coach for gay men who are ready to shed excuses, fears and apologies to step fully into their truth. So in this episode, Rick introduces us to his fabulous inner drag avatar, Limonade pop, and shares how embodying this alter ego has helped him tap into his authenticity and creativity. He takes us through his journey of coming out at a later age, at 36 and how it reshaped his life and what it taught him about living unapologetically. Then we explore what gets in the way of people's authenticity, and Rick shares a powerful story that reminds us we're not responsible for how others see us. Then together, we unpack how fear and love factor into the quest for truth and how coming out can be kind of a training for queer folks to connect with their deeper selves, a practice that can transform all areas of their lives. Rick also shares the framework he uses to help clients take big leaps of faith towards alignment and authenticity, whether it's coming out or changing careers or embracing life's biggest transitions. And of course, we talk relationships. Rick opens up about navigating an open marriage with his husband, and how staying true to themselves has strengthened their bond. And finally, we close with gratitude for the divine maker that made us, each of us, unapologetically us. So get ready to laugh, reflect and feel inspired in this episode, it's packed with wisdom, whole lot of heart and authenticity. Let's dive in. All right. Rick, so great to see you. Welcome to queerly Beloved. Hey,

Rick Clemmons  2:39  
man, it's so good to see you again. I feel like we see each other a lot these days because we keep I like that stuff together. So um, but yes, thanks for having me on your podcast. I so appreciate it.

Wil Fisher  2:48  
Oh, I'm so grateful to have you on my podcast. I've enjoyed being on your podcast, and I love connecting with your listeners, and I'm excited for my listeners to get a taste of Mr. Rip Clemens this afternoon, and I gotta start with the question that I always start, which is, who are you in this moment? But tell me by describing a drag avatar that embodies that, and feel free to take a moment, to take a breath and ground into the question and share when you're ready. You

Rick Clemmons  3:19  
know it's actually quite easy, because in each moment, no matter what's going on, my actual drag avatar is alive and well within me all the time, and her name is lemonade pop, and she is a big black diva, and she doesn't take any best shit, but she's very empathetic and very Loving, and she gonna wrap you up in your warm arms of love, but when you misbehave, she gonna let you know. And she is fierce, and she is loving. She's unapologetic every step of the way. That's the reason my brand is around that whole piece. And it was so interesting, Wil when I discovered that voice within which had always been there, I realized how much thrill i got from bringing her alive. She came alive in my first book. Frankly, my dear, I'm gay, and ever since then, she has been a backbone of me getting through some of the toughest stuff of my life, because she whips me into shape, and she lets me be sad, she lets me be sassy, she lets me be introspective, and she does she slaps me around every once a while. So welcome to lemonade, pop everybody. So she is fully in the house with us right now.

Wil Fisher  4:38  
I love it. I love it so much. Yeah, I love the name too, and I love that she tells it like it is. I love that she gives you that tough love, but, you know, it's like there's a tough directness, but she's also very loving and caring. And I love that you've been able to work with this archetype to support your journey. And it's it's so sweet to to welcome the. Add energy into the room. So thanks for sharing about her, of course. Yeah. So I'll share mine. I am in go mode right now as I prepare for the holidays and for this retreat, and kind of like taking care of business. And so as I think about that energy, I'm thinking of sort of like an 80s, an 80s working mom, is the vibe that I'm feeling. So she's like, she's, like, got her career, but she's also got her kids, and she was wearing, like a bright red blazer, and she's got this, like, Burnett 80s cut, and she's on top of it, you know, but she's, like, joyfully getting all the things done and, you know, figuring out, like, what's gonna happen while she's gone and and just taking care of business. So, yeah, I'm in 80s mode. Yeah, 80s it is working mom mode.

Rick Clemmons  6:00  
I love it. I love it, I love it.

Wil Fisher  6:02  
But, yeah, I'm so, so glad to get to to have this conversation with you today. And you know, one of the things that I find so inspiring about you and what you offer the world with your 40 plus podcast and with your book is the story of of coming out later in life, because I am finding that a lot of folks, gay folks, who are seeking healing, share that story, and so I'd love for you to just tell the readers a little bit about that experience and some of the learnings and some of the things that have that have helped you grow through that process.

Rick Clemmons  6:41  
Thanks for asking that question. And it's always an interesting journey every time I get to re share it. And one of the things I know now, so it's 2024 so it's actually been 25 years since that journey began, and it's always been there, let's just be honest. That's always been part of who I was, but I've realized the value of Now what has become so much of what I hang my hat on, and my brand and the way I live my life, that my coming out was about me finally being unapologetic and really truly embracing that. And you know, as somebody who was married in a heterosexual relationship, I have two beautiful daughters. They're now grown young women. The typical fears showed up like, okay, you know, I'm gonna ruin everything. I lose my job, I'm gonna lose my kids and blah blah blah blah blah. And I don't say blah blah blah blah blah, because those are real concerns, right? Those are real things that anybody going through any kind of divorce. These are things that could happen, you know? And I realized that the more I leaned into being myself and embracing that my being myself, there was nothing to apologize for, not a thing, not one thing is what gave strength. It's what gave me guidance. It's what kept the fire alive, and not that that's the way everybody does it. But I think if a lot of people were to step back and think about anything you go and do in life, as you really say you want to do, there's always going to be those moments of shame, guilt. Can't do it. You make your excuses, you let the fears get in the way. But as soon as you can flip the button to but if this is what I truly desire, and this is how I want to show up in my life and in my world, and there's nothing for me to apologize for, which really the unapologetic is being truly authentic, I feel like that's a switch that flipped, and only are ignited. You become alive, and you're able to step into where you need to step into. Now for the listeners, that didn't happen overnight, trust me, because even after I came out, and you know, I made my mistakes all the way through, I realized finding that space to be unapologetic without being an asshole, is what I had to come to. And that was a big journey for me, because I grew up in a narcissistic household, so I fought it a lot, and I still fight it because I witnessed it. That was how I was, quote, unquote, socialized. Did you know I witnessed all that stuff? And so those things were the tug of wars, but as soon as I started realizing I can blend all this and be who I want to be, but it doesn't have to be, you accept me or you don't. Yes, there's trouble in my life. Like, if you don't accept me, that's okay. It's no longer that, ooh, get out of my you know, get out of my face. Sort of things like, then we just don't have anything in common. But I think so many people who come through that journey wil these are the things that they contend with, and when you can find that inner peace, that's actually your inner superpower, too.

Wil Fisher  9:50  
Yeah, it reminds me of like a rebellious teenager, right? That that at some point when the teenager decides that they are independent and want to express something different. Than what their parents have taught them to express. They might call what they're doing unapologetic, but it's actually, you know, they're being assholes, but so what I hear in your story is that you had to find that balance of, how can I be unapologetic with grace? How can I do that in a way that people are able to receive me and my truth, and what I love about what you're saying too is that there is no need to apologize for our truth forever, that truth is beautiful, the truth is love, and we don't need to apologize for it, and when we do, that's often looks like us hiding who we are and falling into people pleasing and conforming to how people expect us to be. And so I just love this, this anchoring of this learning that you never need to apologize for your truth. And so what are some of your thoughts on authenticity, like, What? What? What do you see when you're supporting folks who are on this journey to expressing the truth of who they are, what do you see can get in the way of authenticity for them

Rick Clemmons  11:10  
or for yourself? Yeah, that's a great question. Wil. One of the things that came right to mind as you were asking that is, you know, defining authenticity for yourself, not based on other people's expectations. Doesn't mean, you know, don't bring along what other people have helped you define and how you've been socialized around authenticity. But this beautiful piece of like, okay, this is what really aligns for me. This is what I feel like aligns for me as an authentic person. People are always shocked by God. I can get on a stage when I'm doing speaking engagements, and I can share some of the deepest, darkest stuff. Like, yes, I cheated. I cheated on my wife the whole time I was married to her. And I don't say it because I'm proud of it, but it was the reality. It was part of my way of coping through this dichotomy of, okay, this is just a sexual thing. I just need to have this and then go back to life, you know. But I share those things openly, because if I can't speak my truth, then I'm still assigning shame to being gay. I'm still assigning shame to be in a sexual being. I'm still assigning shame to being able to love a man more than I could ever have loved the you know, mother of my children. Sure, when you start to accept these things, you squelch the shame. So first of all, defining what authenticity really means for you on your terms, not somebody else's little window. The second thing is learning that shame has a purpose in opening us to how to better live our truth. It's a big shift. Shame is one of those things that we all carry. Oh my gosh, I'm too fat. Well, there's shame. Oh my gosh. Nobody likes me because, you know, I I'm whatever. Shame comes up in so many things that we do, but yet, when we can relinquish the shame, that's when we start to step into our truth, and those are two of the biggest things that I work with, especially it's interesting Wil, because it's across the board like I wil. I do that a lot with guys that are coming out, but even gay men in midlife who are like trying to move on to the next thing, there's guys who who feel ashamed because they want to be in a long term relationship that's committed, they feel ashamed, wow, because now it's like, I'm going to let go of all the party boy stuff and the hooking up, and there's a shame that comes with that, versus embracing this is your truth. Let's embrace it. Let's get rid of that shame, and let's absolutely step into being unapologetic about wanting to be in a long term, committed monogamous relationship. I think those are the beautiful pieces when you wrap your arm around

Wil Fisher  13:46  
it. So good, yeah. And what I hear in that too, is is forgiveness, right? That that shame often can help us realize that there's something that needs to be changed, right, that there's something off, and that this behavior that we're doing is out of alignment, right? But then ultimately, once we find alignment, it doesn't serve us to remain stuck in that shame spiral. So in your story, it's like there was shame around being around cheating, right? And in a sense, that was supporting you for seeing that you weren't in alignment, right? You You weren't in alignment, and you needed to do something different, but now that you've gotten into alignment, you don't want to stay stuck in that shame, because it's in the past, and you are able to forgive yourself and be forgiven by your wife, I imagine, and to be able to move on from this place of truth. And it is often when we aren't able to forgive ourselves, aren't able to give ourselves compassion and grace, that we get stuck in that shame and we get stuck in that guilt and that can that can rob us from our authenticity too, because we again, are trying to to be something that we are not.

Rick Clemmons  14:57  
I think another interesting piece of the puzzle Wil. Is when we start to move into being more authentically who we are, you're actually challenging other people to step into being authentically who they are. Yeah, that doesn't mean, because I'm doing this, you need to go do this, but it's such an interesting energy that starts to show up because there's a mirror that starts to get reflected. I'm not saying, Oh, I'm holier than thou. But that was a big piece for me to like, wrap my head around, because that's when I had the shift from being an asshole about all this to being, Oh, I understand what I'm showing you is rubbing you the wrong way, or making you see something or it's going against your values, which there's a lot of things we all do that are our different values than other people. But when we start to accept that here's my value and here's how I choose to show up authentically. I'm mirroring to you that ability to do that, and then suddenly you're pushing somebody's button because of that that has nothing to do with us. I mean, I went through that with my ex wife a lot, until we finally got to a space where there was an understanding that she was, she was dealing with her own stuff, big time, really big time stuff. And when I finally was able to relinquish and not try to have to fix that for her, or get her to see things my way. And one of the culminations of all of that was just recently. Our daughter got married in August of 2024 and we have moved a long ways past stuff. We don't, we don't hardly interact. There's no reason for my ex wife and I to interact. I'm like, Okay, well, how will this go down at the wedding? Right? I'm gonna, I'm gonna be cool about things. I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna go when they go low, I'm gonna go high, right? And there's a lot of times that she went really, really low, got it? And we said a couple of hellos, and then at the end of the evening, as you know, everybody's starting to get on the dance floor and stuff, there was a moment where we actually kind of ran into each other. And I thought, I'm just gonna say what's on my heart? And I said, I just need you to know I'm really proud of the girl and the daughter that we brought into this world and what she's become. And she said, I agree 100% and she actually reached out and gave me a hug, which I wasn't expecting that. And that was a moment where I realized, for all the other stuff that we are, we can still like, see each other in different light and not agree with who we each are. Yeah, the life's too short to like, hold ourselves in these hostage situations, or to hold ourselves responsible for how somebody else sees us and reacts to us. Yeah. Thank

Wil Fisher  17:33  
you so much for sharing that story That's so touching. I'm so glad you guys got to have that moment at this really special day for your daughter too. I'm sure that probably would mean a lot to your daughter too, that you guys had that moment, and that's just so sweet to hear. And I agree that when we step into our deeper authenticity, we have the potential to trigger people who haven't done that work. We also have the potential to invite people into their authenticity. So it's kind of an interesting, polarizing dynamic of people seeing an authentic expression of self can either be triggered from it, because it's making them realize where they are not being authentic, or it can help them see a model of authenticity and feel inspired to step more into their authenticity. And I think really the distinction that that creates one path or the other is the amount of love or the amount of fear in the room. You know, I feel like when we have love, when we're surrounded by love, an expression authenticity is an invitation for more expressions of authenticity. Exactly, we feel that loving support, but when there's fear in the space, it's it's so hard for folks to express the truth of who they are because they are afraid of, you know, the backlash and yeah. So I just wanted to acknowledge, I feel like that is the big distinction is like, love supports authenticity and fear prevents it. Yes,

Rick Clemmons  19:06  
and when we are confronted with this authenticity piece, like, however it shows up, it also gives us the opportunity to recheck in with ourself and go, is this what I really define as authenticity? We can get off track. There's times I'm like, Okay, this is authentically who I am. And then suddenly I'm like, Whoa, wait. This doesn't feel quite right. But then the little weird, creepy stuff, like, well, but this is what everybody else is feeling really good about. But I'm like, but that doesn't align with me. So then I get scared and go, Okay, have I been being a hypocrite? That's one thing. I'm like, I hypocrisy is one of my things that I'm just like, drives me nuts. I have a hard time with it in other people, and I see people for who they are, but when the hypocrisy really shows up, I realize there's something in me that I'm going, hmm, where's your hypocrisy showing up? So I think anytime we're confronted with authenticity, and it's not feeling quite right, a really beautiful. Is to ask ourselves, then, what's out of alignment with our own piece of how we define authenticity? Because there's always going to be something, something's going to be out of alignment. And it's that simple.

Wil Fisher  20:13  
It is, it's simple and it's challenging, right? Because it is. It's a discerning process of like, what is my truth like and is it? Is it egoic? Is it my, you know, the people pleaser in me? Is it the pressure to to act a certain way that's having me think that this is authenticity. It's like the ego really does have a tricky hold on us, sometimes that can strip us from our authenticity. And my experience of it is that the more that I commit to my personal growth and my spiritual path, the more the layers of the onions are peeled off. And I you know that my authenticity is ever evolving. In a way. It's like this is who I am right now in this moment. But is it really the deepest truth of who I am, no and I and my every time I have these moments of growth and self discovery, I get to get into deeper experiences of my authenticity and have greater capacity to express that

Rick Clemmons  21:15  
absolutely and usually, that's when lemonade pops. She shows up and she go, Ricky, are you sure she's

Wil Fisher  21:22  
like, I don't know about that. I don't know about this girl.

Rick Clemmons  21:25  
She She's and then it's so interesting, and I love again, that I brought that part of me alive, because I can hear, I mean, that man, that voice doesn't show up. Like, girl, are you sure? Are you sure that this is and it's such a powerful thing, and in my darkest moments, that's when it usually happens too. It's like, okay, wait, let's do this interesting check in. But it's also interesting to be able, you know, as I keep doing the work, I'm not I'm never gonna say, Oh, I've arrived. Yeah, I don't think we ever arrived. We're constantly in this beautiful work of digging deeper that as I think back over all these challenges around authenticity. It wasn't just my sexuality. It was what I did for my work. It was wanting to be in a high level corporate position, and then realizing that really wasn't what it was either I was being authentic for the moment of what I thought was it, but that wasn't what I really wanted to do. And then when I got laid off, and, you know, the opportunities came up, and I, like, fought it like, Well, no, but I got to have income, which, of course, we have to have you. I mean, let's not be stupid. We have to have money coming in. But it was the second layoff in six years that I finally was like, this, this is I'm done. I'm going to be really honest with myself that I'm done. And that was when the career change started to happen. And then things started to change in my relationship, where I'm like, certain things need to be different, because I want this to really thrive. And each time I kept leaning back into well, how did I come to this authenticity space in my sexuality? How can I use the same tools to come to authenticity about my career direction, about how I want our relationship to be I want to be with my children, how I want to be with my ex wife, how I want to be with my parents. The core thing was always coming back to center and asking, am I being authentically? How I want to be with this moment, with these situations, and my coming out fueled so much of that, so much. I learned how to do it once and like, let's rent repeat and do it all over again. Yes,

Wil Fisher  23:33  
and you learned how to do it with a really high stakes in a really high stakes game. I'm especially considering that you were married with kids, it's like you were challenged to tap into the truth and then follow the path of truth, and so that does give you the training to do that in other areas of life. And I do think that's one of the gifts that LGBTQ people have, that a lot of straight people that don't necessarily have this, this moment where we have this very high stakes opportunity to tap into the truth of who we are in the the context of sexuality. And you know, it's not that straight people don't have other opportunities to do that. I mean, a lifetime of opportunities, but it's something that that queer people are faced with, and I do think that it can create the kind of training wheels that supports future authenticity. Yeah. The other thing I wanted to share that was coming up is that, yeah, when you're talking about this questioning of like, Is this my most authentic? Am I being the most authentic version of myself in this situation? It's like, I often think of it in relationship terms, so, like, in relationship to my work life in relationship to my family life in relationship. And then I also think about it in terms of the energy. Behind it. It's like, is this this? This the energy that I want to have in this relationship? Is this? Is this the expression of who I am and how I want to be, you know, and kind of using those questions as a as another tool for discernment.

Rick Clemmons  25:18  
But I love this energy piece because it's, it's really manifested for me in the last month since the election. I came out of it with a lot of ugly fight energy. And I got rid of, I have to admit, I got rid of some people that I was like this. This isn't working for me, that energy. Can't I can't be with that energy. And then there were some that I kind of like, okay, I utilize that authenticity energy. Like this is authentically who I am to like this is how I see the world. I don't see you seeing it my way. So I'm going to, I'm going to shift how I interact with you. And I saw a couple of people like, we, it's interesting that we didn't have conversations about this, because I'm like, No, these are work environments. Not gonna have a conversation about this. But I saw their energy shift because of some things. Like, I, you know, basically didn't, you know, just kind of got rid of them on some social media and stuff and everything I was doing, what I needed to do for me, I needed to, like, heal this energy, but I didn't want to put them completely out of the picture, because I actually have to work with some of these people. And I found out when I started to shift into my authentic self, but do it from that space of not being the angry bitch, I'm gonna be really honest. You know that I started feeling much more at peace, like, Hey, I'm going to do this, and here's how I'm going to do this to, you know, heal myself. I'm going to have to feel it to heal it. So we already did that on my podcast. Yeah, I was really in the fields and trying to heal it. I came out of it so much more at peace. It took a couple of weeks, and now with a couple of these people, we're kind of back to where we are. I think we we're not going to have the conversations, because we realize we can just be how we need to be with each other, nice. They also find that how you just set that up. Wil like, what's the relationship and the energy I want to this was family to myself with friends, if we can tap into what that energy looks like and feels like, the exact opposite is what we want to experience most of the time, when I was feeling angry and fuck you, that is not my authentic self. That is a piece of myself that is a reactionary self, yes, but what I really want is to be at peace. I want to be in a space of love. I want to be a space of empathy. And I realized as I worked through that I got back to more of that. I still want to care about this person. I still want to be empathetic. I realized we are not going to see things the same way, and I wouldn't just be in a wait and see mode, like, where what happens, because that puts me back in a very much more aligned, energetic space with myself,

Wil Fisher  27:59  
beautiful. And how has that gone? How has that gone approaching those really, it's

Rick Clemmons  28:03  
been really good. I mean, I I'm sleeping better. I mean, at first I wasn't sleeping at all. And even so, even every step of the way is these bigger things have come up, like deciding to start my business. When my husband and I made the decision that we were going to get married, which we always, we never had any doubt. I mean, we'd already done everything in California to be, you know, domestic partners, all the legal stuff, but, you know, we made the decision get married. When we consciously made the decision to talk about opening up our relationship, when I aligned those energies with who this is, authentically who I am or who we are, the angst just kind of like disappeared, nice, nice, beautiful, because I stepped into my truest self and said, This is what, this is how I choose to be, which is a big thing for many of us, like realizing you get to choose how you want to be, but it is A choice. That's

Wil Fisher  29:00  
a choice, yes. And it's like expressing it is the key, right? The key that unlocks it. It's like that, you know, it's and it was a little cliche, but the truth will set us free. It's like when we are able, when we have the courage, to express that truth, then we are able to start to experience that freedom. So there's a few different follow up pieces. I definitely want to chat more about the marriage and that decision to open it up, but before we do going back to this decision you made to step into entrepreneurship, you know, after a corporate career, and just recognizing that there's a lot of faith that needs to come with that and and I see you supporting clients who are having These moments that require them to have some faith, to really, like take that leap. You know, whether it's coming out or whatever it is that is getting in the way of their their authenticity, their their best life. And so what is it that supports you, and perhaps what you how you help your clients with that? The. That, that that helps you have that faith, that helps you trust that it's going to be okay. On the other side,

Rick Clemmons  30:07  
I think the biggest piece, and I'm going to quickly run through like, like, here's here's my framework. It's so simple, the first thing you got to do is you got to admit you're confused. You really have to own your confusion. But in that confusion, you have to be willing to go get curious, and the more curious you get, the more questions you ask, the less confused you feel. But if we stop there, Wil, okay, cool, I'm no longer confused, but am I actually in action? No, you have to have the courage then to go step into what you've learned, what you're how you want to enact that, how you want to take it into action. But even the Courage isn't enough, because you got to commit to doing something with it. So you get all these things start to build on each other, and as you step into that, then the thing is, is okay, I can be committed, but what it's going to take is that confidence to consistently show up. So my process is very simple. You move from confusion, curiosity, courage, commitment, confidence, consistency. I can work with anybody on anything that they're going through, and they can be at any stage of that game. They're like, Okay, I'm really ready to do this. I'm okay. They got the courage, right. But what are you willing to commit to now to move it into the next space, where are you lacking confidence? What does consistently showing up as a guy who is been married to a woman and now been married to a guy who now says, Hey, this is who I am. This is how I show up. I happen to be in a very loving relationship. And, you know, I happen to be a guy who, like, stepped into entrepreneurship. But what did I have to do? I had to quit being confused about I had to have the courage. I got into that courage space. I kept asking the questions every day, even now, I ask questions like, What can I do? How can I do something better to have more clients? What is the thing that I'm spending too much time doing and not enough time doing other places? When I take the whole cycle and I work this with myself on the daily love it, how do I stay committed to and have the confidence to consistently show up as a podcaster, a coach, an author, you know, all these different things. That's the cycle that works really well for me, and I've found it works really well with clients, is I love that cycle,

Wil Fisher  32:14  
and then I love that framework done so good. I love that it has that alliteration too, that it's all C's, you really found the perfect words that all happen to start with C that makes it easy to remember. And yeah, it's it's what I also appreciated about it, and this is true with so many of the most effective frameworks, is that it's not a one and done. It's like you do go through the cycle, but then you can keep cycling it. You can come back to more curiosity. You can come back to greater confidence, greater consistency, whatever it is. And maybe there's times where you're able to see that you're lacking in this or that, and you can give that more energy. Or maybe it's another piece, but just using those as markers and access points for you to step into a greater expression of yourself, that's beautiful.

Rick Clemmons  32:58  
The ironic piece of all that was, this is like everybody said, Well, what do you, how do you do this? What's, what's your, you know, what's your process? Whether I'm like, I don't know. I just do it, you know? And we had just started landing in this whole concept of no fears, no excuses, no apologies. So we were the brand was coming together. I was kind of moving from just being the gay life coach, like talking to other people. Now starting to do some speaking all this. And I love the no fears, no excuses, no apologies, because I'm like that works for gay people, that works for anybody. And I was working with my marketing person years ago, and we had some epiphanies around some stuff that happened on a stage one night. And she goes, Well, let's talk about the process a little bit. I said, You know what? I figured this out. I said because here's what happens when you're in the excuses, you're confused and you gotta go get curious, but once you step into that, now you're in the fears, The No Fear space. So when you're in the fears, you gotta have the courage and the commitment to keep going, but when you finally step into living unapologetically. It's about having the confidence and the consistency. And it was so wild wil that I'm like, wow, those things were two separate thought process. When those all came together, I'm like, This is how I can really explain this to people and go, here's my process, here's my insight and and it's interesting to watch people shift. I think this is the beauty of what we get to do as coaches. We find a process that works and it really moves our clients. What I just described may work for some of you know, your listeners, but they may like what you do differently and what you do. I mean, you and I have had these conversations over and over, like, there's there. I can't, I can't be everybody's coach, nor would I want to, right? So I think the beautiful processes that we find as coaches and healers in the world and going, you know what? I and I know, I've sent you a couple of people I know, one person for sure, went to your retreat, because I'm like, I think this would be a really good thing for you. That's what I hope these kind of conversations enable us to do. Is like, here's ways to do this. Find the. Wil the practitioner that really works for you. And now let's buckle up, because it's gonna be a rocky ride, boys. But man, when you can move through it, it's amazing. I love

Wil Fisher  35:08  
that so much, yeah, and I also appreciate, yeah, how you were able to see the other, I don't know, marketing slogan, the campaign was just the flip side of this one, right? And I see that with a lot of frameworks, that ultimately there's the shadow, which that was the other one was focusing on the shadow, no fear, no excuses, like no the shadow, right? And then the other side of that is, yes, the to the light. So there's a archetypes that I work with, the the lover, the warrior, the King, the magician, right? And those are the light archetypes. And then there's a shadow side to each of those. And it can be really helpful to focus on the light and think about where you want to move. But it's also helpful to have awareness of what the shadow version of all those are too, so that you can avoid those things. So it's like, it's helpful to know both what you are wanting to stay away from and what you're wanting to move towards. So yeah, I really appreciate you, boy,

Rick Clemmons  36:09  
if you don't pay attention, but if you don't, if you don't pay attention to the shadow, it will continue to be there and trip you up. You've got to know what the shadow is. You have to be able to see and you have to be able to recognize when a new shadow is showing up. I mean, every day there's a new shadow in my life, and it may be similar to something else, but, man, sometimes it's like, oh, this is why I can't do this, you know? And then it's like, well, that's a new it's either a new shadow or it's a new version of an existing shadow. It's always interesting to have that dialog like, okay, but Doesn't this feel similar to the thing you've dealt with in the past?

Wil Fisher  36:44  
Yeah, like an up level version of it. It's like a more complicated, confusing like, the ego is just so brilliant, because it's like, oh, he figured that one out. But what if I, what if I present it in this form? Like, what if I put a little disguise on it, wrap it with a bow, and then slide the shadow across his desk. Maybe then he's gonna get fooled. And so really comes back to this discernment process. You know, it's like it does. How discerning can we be and how, how committed to the truth can we be in this process? So my

Rick Clemmons  37:16  
shadow, my shadow, showed up really heavily, real quick here. Oh, yeah. So, so back in october 2024, just recently, I ended my one of my podcasts. 10 years, 641, episodes, wow. And man, when I was making that decision, oh, the shadows that showed up. Oh, you're a failure. Oh, my gosh, you're giving up. Oh, come on. You know, if you really wanted to do this, what are people going to think of you? And I, I actually finally said, Fuck you. Fuck you. I'm doing this because this is the right time, and I'm stepping into my authentic self and saying I have there's no fears around this. There's no more excuses for saying I'm letting go. It served its purpose. It was a great run, and to see the shadows show up. Wil, that was a biggie, like, Okay, stop. You're letting something potentially rule where you want to shift the energy from that one into my current one, which is, it's well beyond too. It's like 300 episodes. So I'm realizing, and here's what I've experienced, peace of mind, I'm not working as much on the weekends because I worked a full time gig for another company. I'm finding my creativity and my thought process around 40 plus gay men, gay talk is much more open to like, Oh, that's a great idea. But if I had to go, boy, that's a great idea for this one, and then this is a great idea for life on causes. Now, how do I balance both of these? And how do I got to get these recorded? I mean, and not that it was daunting. I mean, some people were like, how do you do two podcasts? The systems are done. I'm pretty good and quick at it, but I know it was time to release energy. That's a big piece for all of us. Is no when it's time to move the energy or release it to something else, that's right,

Wil Fisher  39:05  
yeah, it just created more spaciousness for you. And you know, we both are men who do a lot. We juggle a lot of balls, but it's like because we are that we need to make sure that these balls are worth juggling. We want to pick our balls, right?

Rick Clemmons  39:21  
No pun intended. There no

Wil Fisher  39:22  
pun intended. Speaking of picking balls, I wanted to hear a little more about your journey of opening the relationship. How has that been for you guys, and are you still in that process? Is that fairly new, or

Rick Clemmons  39:36  
it's been a while we were together, probably about five, six years, when we first started exploring it, it's been exploring together, predominantly with some permission to explore separately. And it has its challenges. You have to be very grounded. You have to. I'm, you know, I'm gonna say a lot of things. A lot of people are you have to be grounded. You have to have a lot of communication. Yeah, you have to not be afraid to say, this is what authentically is working for me. It's not working for me. You definitely have to understand yourself and why this is something that you desire. And we've been together now 23 years. Wow, that, Oh my gosh. You know, it's time to find some we are both very conscious that we're sexual beings and we enjoy sexual pleasure, and that we actually do enjoy sexual pleasure with another person involved. We've never done it with more than one at a time. So the next thing that we would, we would love to experience, but cool, cool. It's tricky because we're two different people, which everybody in a relationship is. Now, what I'm going to say is I'm a big bearish type. My husband is a slender more. He's very well put together, but he's just, he's a slender guy. He's not a bear, he's Hispanic. So you have the bald daddy guy that a lot of people bald Daddy bear, that there's a people that are attracted to that. Then you have the Hispanic Latino who's really handsome. And so finding that perfect mix, you know, is really a challenge, but we have a really good understanding. At times, not so good we have to work through things from time to time, yeah, where the conversation is just absolutely critical and understanding, like, are we? Where are we at with our own, you know, identities? I'm very open, like I have always been very much a predominant top. I mean, that was just the way I came into my sexuality. It's because you were married to a woman. I'm like, no. That has nothing to do with it. That's just fair. I enjoy stuff. I have no shame in saying now that I actually am more of a side than anything. I like just, you know, fondling, jerking off, you know, blow jobs, that sort of stuff. I love intimacy. I'm not as much of a like, Yeah, let's wham bam top some guy. I actually enjoy watching that with my husband and with another man. So those have been conversations that have been very open and, you know, and again, I'm not going to say it's perfect. There are times that, like, really sucks because, you know, the guy we might, you know, choose to be in a situation with, oh yeah, I'm into both you, and then they're into one or the other. But we've learned to navigate that too. That's just going to happen. We found that we have found, for us, it's been a healthy addition to our relationship, nice. It's made us more loving in so many ways. Where men of certain age, you know we're I mean, I'm 61 he's going to be 60 this coming year. Doesn't mean we're dead. I'm saying that, guys, we're not dead. Just because we're 60 something does not mean we're dead as gay men. But I find the ability to see how this has helped us as a couple, and also has helped us explore other things, like we we explore a lot of retreats and stuff where we get to go explore, like, what does it mean to be sexual beings? We're we're starting to do a whole lot more of that, because we real. I realized, for me that that's a core essence of my authenticity, is recognizing I am a sexual person. That doesn't mean I'm jerking off all the time and, you know, screwing around with whoever comes along, but I like the energy of being a sexual pleasure person. Yeah, that's really, I think that's helped us a lot in our relationship. Yeah,

Wil Fisher  43:43  
beautiful, yeah. I mean, I see in that story, this invitation, as you tap into deeper truths of your desires and express those truths again and start pursuing them, that it actually creates a catalyst for new moments of growth, right? New challenging conversations, new different, sometimes challenging things to navigate as a couple, and it can potentially bring you closer together. And it sounds like it has in many ways, and it has helped elevate the relationship

Rick Clemmons  44:19  
well. And as you just alluded to Wil, it's added to other things in our world, where it's helped us communicate better, ask deeper questions, except, like, you know, one of the things that used to bug me is like, my husband is much more of a he's got to think about something. And so when we've had our times, or we've had arguments and stuff, I'm like, let's just get this resolved. He can't. He's like, I gotta, I need to process this. And so as I've learned to be with that, you know, I guess one of the biggest things is, like, even the movement from like, you know, for any gay guys who are listening to this, like, those awkward moments, like you're having a really. Great time in bed with your partner or boyfriend or somebody, and then suddenly you just, you're not really, you're not going to get off. So many people can get offended by that, and I used to, like, get really upset about that, or like, you're not in the mood. And this has even helped me accept and help him accept that there's nothing to take personally here, because we've started to have more of those conversations. You know, nice. I remember the first time that I asked for certain things that I wanted. I was, like, a little bit scared, and that's been fairly like, that's been the last seven, eight years I've been really open about, here's what I really enjoyed. This what I want. And it was scary at first, and now it's much easier to just say, No, this is now what I truly enjoy. And to be able to go there, I think because we've had some of the more difficult conversations, it makes those things feel like that's a drop in the bucket compared to some of this other stuff.

Wil Fisher  45:55  
I love that, and then you have greater access to receiving what you truly desire, and experiencing higher levels of pleasure and joy. And, yeah, I feel like that's been a sort of a theme in this conversation too, is like really tapping into truth and having the courage to express that truth, and then navigating the path of moving towards that desire, moving towards that truth, that full expression of it, and

Rick Clemmons  46:21  
that's what it's all about in my book. I mean, okay, yes, in my physical book, but in my book, it is truly about just being in that space, even as I wrote book number two and now we're gonna book number three. I keep coming back to like, because I'm being really challenged on book two and three. Yeah, because I had the book, book two is written, I'm trying to get a publisher. And then they came back and said, Well, we like this, but we want this. I'm like, okay, great. So here we go again. But what I keep coming back to is I know at the core center of everything from, frankly, my dear, I'm gay book number one to book number two. It's called unapologetic, still working through what that's gonna look like. And book number three is kind of a mystery, because I'm playing with it knowing that it's gonna go somewhere about, you know, releasing gay men to be more of who they are in their world, in their way. In fact, I can give you a little preview. The title we've landed on is liberation within the gay man's guide for breaking free of your own bullshit, shame, fears and excuses. Yeah, core of it, it is about finding that authentic, unapologetic way of you being you in the world, not based on everybody else's expectations. So good. And I, I, you know, we're recording this the day before Thanksgiving. So this is one of the things I give great I'm very grateful for. I have a lot of gratitude towards that my maker has helped me find my way of being unapologetically me and letting that be a ripple, from the moment I wake up and I'm given the opportunity to wake up every morning to the moment I get to drift off into sleep, and even in those middle of night moments when I'm like, Are you kidding? Just because I'm 60, am I really gonna have to get up and go pee again? I'm unapologetic about having to go pee 10 times a night, but I'm grateful, because I feel like that's what's given me some of my greatest strengths to continue the battle. Yes, when there's times that I felt like I can't as soon as I flip into that energy, it liberates me within.

Wil Fisher  48:31  
Oh, I love it so much. Thank you. Thank you maker. Thank you for making us these incredible beings that we get to be. Thank you for inspiring us to live these truths. Any any final words you want to share. This is such a I would just say, I know

Rick Clemmons  48:47  
you got a wide range of members who listen, or, you know, audience members that listen. I'm going to give you my quote that I say every time that I come off of a stage, the truth of who you are is far more powerful than the false truth you're pretending to be. So always show the world who you truly are.

Wil Fisher  49:10  
Mike, drop, I love it. Thank you so much. Rick, this has been a total pleasure. I'm so glad you wil and so much love to you. You too, man, thank you so much for listening my beloveds. I hope you enjoyed this conversation. Please check the show notes to learn about Rick and to check out his podcast, and also in there, you'll find links to learn about my work and connect with me. So much love to you. Oh, my God. As beloveds, what a joy it was to be with you today. Let's hang out again soon. Okay? And if you can think of a friend who would benefit from hearing this, we share it with them, sending so much love and light to you today and every day until next time. Peace.

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