Getting Divinely Disruptive with Rev. Karmen Michael Smith

In this episode of Queerly Beloved, I’m joined by the luminous and liberatory Rev. Karmen Michael Smith- a Black queer theologian, cultural strategist, and author of Holy Queer: The Coming Out of Christ. As the creator of Prophetic Intelligence™ and the founder of the inclusive digital faith community Poor Culture, Karmen’s work lives at the sacred intersection of queerness, spirituality, and social transformation. He currently serves as the Director of Community Engagement and Social Justice at Union Theological Seminary.

Together, we dive into the radiant, raw, and radically affirming terrain of queer divinity and spiritual expansion.

Topics we explore include:

• Spiritual self-care as sacred ritual (yes, including solo dance parties!).
• What it means to minister beyond the walls of the church.
• Why disruption can be divine, and the gateway to liberation.
• The richness and freedom found in the margins.
• Queerness not as a curse but as a calling.
• The layered intersection of being Black, queer, and spiritual.
• How to court presence in a world full of distractions.

✨ This is one of those conversations that opens hearts, shifts paradigms, and makes the sacred feel just a little more spacious. Take a breath, take your time, and let this one land in your spirit.

🔗 Learn more about Rev. Karmen Michael Smith:
Website: karmenmichael.com
Book: Holy Queer: The Coming Out of Christ
Podcast: Heart of the Moment

And connect with me at www.wil-fullyliving.com and Insta @wilfish99

Transcript

Wil Fisher  
All right, Carmen, welcome to Creely, beloved. So good to have you.

Karmen  
So happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Yes.

Wil Fisher  
So I can't wait to drop in. I have so many things I want to ask you about. I can tell you've got so much wisdom to share with the listeners. And before I do though, I'm gonna start with this opening question, and I can answer it first, if it's helpful. But the question is this, the invitation is to breathe in, kind of get centered and answer, who are you in this moment? But tell me by describing the perfect drag avatar that embodies that. And when I say drag avatar, it could be his traditional drag queen, or it could be something more kind of, I don't know, ethereal, like a tree or something like that. If you think you have it great. If not, I can go.

Karmen  
I think I have it awesome. I am. I Yeah, I'm a ball of light sitting under a tree, taking a respite, sometimes bright, shining brightly

Karmen  
in this moment, maybe half masked, but still glowing, and getting my sustenance and nourishment from all around

Wil Fisher  
me. Yeah. And if you don't mind, share a little more why you are in that place of receiving the sustenance. Before we jumped on, you were talking about this new practice of taking some space. I'm wondering if that has something to do with it, or something else you'd like to share about that?

Karmen  
Well, I think that, and I'll speak for myself, in doing this light work, you are always luminous. You are always shining a beacon to others, to brighter light for some but it's always radiating from you. And I'm learning it's important to honor that light, that gift of light, because we don't create it, or I believe that I don't create it, that it is a gift given unto me to share with the world, and at the same time, I have to nourish the vessel that houses the light, and so I'm learning to not fill up every single moment of my day, to take the space or the time that I have, whether it's outside, whether I'm in a conference room and it's five minutes before the meeting starts, I want to be in that Space. I want to take the privilege and the opportunity and receive what this space that I've been allowed into, called into, placed into, is giving to me so that I can fully give out whatever I am called to give out in that

Wil Fisher  
moment. Beautiful. Yeah, so important to take care of that light, that gift to the world. And the gift that you can give to the gift is by caring for it in a good way. And so you mentioned some time blocks. What else do you do to care for the light? What other practices do you have? Are you still kind of in the process of finding them?

Karmen  
Oh no, I have my ritual dance. There is a quote, and I don't know who said it, but that when a when someone dances, a part of their soul is released. And so I dance solo. There's probably a couple of videos on my Instagram once when I was in Colombia for a month on a respite, and maybe about a few months ago. Sometimes I'll let the camera go and I'll just do it like after I've done some content creation, but most of the time, it's by myself. I turn on my Spotify DJ. Spotify is not paying me, but I'll turn it on, and I let my arms sway, I let my body move, and I just, I just let my spirit be released, and that gives me a spirit of joy, and I feel so much better, and I feel

Wil Fisher  
full. I love that so much. What a beautiful practice, and I really resonate with that. That movement helps my spirit release. And it's, it's, it's interesting, because it's one of those practices that is both nurturing and energizing. Like it's, it's helping me feel that sort of like, that nurturing energy, but it's, like, invigorating too, and like giving me energy. Yeah, that's beautiful. Thanks for sharing that. And I feel like a certain invitation to bring more of that into my practice too. I especially love doing it outside in my backyard for a while I was every day it was part of my ritual was I would listen to one particular song and I would just like move with my bare feet. On the grass and just let it all out and start to feel the sun on my skin. And, yeah, sweet. So okay, so I'll go now and tapping into my drag avatar in this moment. I'm hmm, I'm seeing this like this bird that I can't, I don't want to mispronounce its name, but it's a Guatemala bird, and it's kind of pea cocky and and I'm, I'm seeing it in part because, as I mentioned before, we jumped on, I'm going to be going to a friend's and we're sitting for some cacao. And my relationship with cacao started in Guatemala when I was spending time at Lake atatlan, and I felt really connected to this one particular bird there. And I'm just feeling connected to Guatemala. And in in that connection, I'm feeling this connection to the bird, and I think specifically the traits of that bird are just flowing and moving and sort of dancing through life and allowing life to come and to be with it as it comes. And, you know, sometimes I think about these different roles that I play, you know, as an uncle, as a son, as a friend, as a coach, as a client, as a podcaster. They are all complimentary in many ways, and they are different hats that I put on. And I think some of my mastery is finding the flow between all these roles. And it's interesting to think about how many of them happen. You know, in an hour, in an hour's time, I might move between, like, seven of them easily and and I'm just feeling sort of this, this sweet, beautiful bird, kind of just moving in flow and with life and, yeah, that's who I'm channeling today. Sounds beautiful, hmm. Thank you. So I would love to start with hearing some of your story of coming into your light and realizing the light that you are and and learning that this spiritual path was a path for you to to follow. How did that come to be?

Karmen  
Well, I, in my book holy queer the coming out of Christ, I write that I was born on the third pew, which is very southern. I grew up in Texas and small town Texas, and we went to church a lot back in the 80s, like we were at church a lot. And church was more than just a Sunday service. It was community. We ate meals. We had, like, sleep overs, the young people, as they called us, you know, we had Vacation Bible schools, where in the summer, one church would do it this week, and then the next week, another would and it was basically like an after school camp, but it was at the church, and it really was just community, and I loved it. I was always attracted to not just the music, but I paid attention to the sermons. And when I was maybe four, I think I was about four years old, I loved the music. So my mom let me go with her to the choir rehearsal because, you know, children were seen and not heard. So I sat there just listening and watching everything, really, just enthralled with the whole process of like the choir rehearsal. And the minister came in and saw me and picked me up, and he walked me to the podium in the middle and said, Say something into the mic, and I don't even know what, I must have mumbled something. And he turned to my mother, she loves telling this story, and said, when he's older, he's going to preach. Wow. My mom loved that story. I always said, Oh, absolutely not like that. No, because I'm like, I'm gay, a a Baptist church never going to happen. Plus, I don't want to be dependent upon y'all for money, because I see how people are struggling. I'm like, No, this is not my life and but I always knew that I had a connection that was different from my friends. You know, I wanted to go to church. They wanted to go outside and play. So I knew that was different. And I've always worked in the church. I'd moved to New York and found a church home, as we called it, and then found community. And then I'm I sing, so I'm like, I'm just going to be in the sound ministry. I just want to be in the background. And then one day this musician comes, and he was like, come here. You can sing. Sing this line here. And so then I people, then are like, Oh, he can sing. So now I'm on the praise and worship team, and I did that for a while, until I felt called away. And that's when my life took a different trajectory. It was my own wilderness experience of sorts. I. Of coming out, away from the church and the the regimen of the you being told this every week, and then you participate in this, and it's almost like a an exercise that you do religiously. But it wasn't I needed something deeper, and God was calling me out, and so I wasn't at a church anymore for the first time in years. And now I had to seek. Now I had to go out and seek, not just sermons, but like communion, fellowship, like, Where can I find this? And that's where I started to find different authors, like Elizabeth lesser, the seekers guide, Reverend Ed bacon and Michael Bernard Beckwith. And so I'm really now hearing diverse voices that I would have never heard in the church, and along this process, got my calling to ministry, and God was like, This is what I want you to do, but I want you to do it differently. And I spent years trying to figure out what differently meant. And still, it's unfolding for me every day. But a good minister, friend of mine said you would go to school for anything else. You should go to seminary and at least get the information. And so I was like, Okay, I'll go. I knew nothing about Union Theological Seminary and its legacy of social justice, again, led there, got accepted, and spent really a lot of time forming myself my ideas, having room to stretch out and to try new things, I would have never known that like you could have services differently without going to union. And so I credit union with opening my mind to the different ways of having service, whether it's a service that's just a DJ or drag chapel or just, I mean, it was literally a playground to say, if you got the idea, let's work it out. So that's how I've come to this ministry. And

Wil Fisher  
so what does that look like? Is it folks who are part of the community are coming and bringing in ideas, or what I love, the energy of play and experimentation. And I'm just curious about the nuts and bolts of it. How does it actually play out? It's

Karmen  
chapel is Monday through Thursday, 30 minutes in the you know, lunchtime, and nothing else is scheduled then, so that people can go and participate, but students bring their ideas. There's a chapel team of students and a chapel minister who is a member of faculty and will help walk you through. Help organize. You can say, I want to do something this Thursday, four weeks from now, they wil help you like, you know, organize your idea. You can bring in, I don't want any music, or I want to preach this way. I want to set the chairs up differently, or I want mats on the floor. It's all of the things you want to do multimedia. Let's figure out how to do it. And so it literally was a sort of, here's the here's the stage. Now you dress it how you want to. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, you critique it. But I think it's always not even a failure. It's always working itself. But the students are bringing their ideas.

Wil Fisher  
I love that so much. It's interesting how people tend to many people tend to find their their practice with God, and it becomes the practice that they do every Sunday or every day, or whatever it is. And it works, and there's nothing wrong with it, but it does become a bit of a box. It becomes a bit of a routine, almost. I mean, as I was sharing about how I used to dance in the grass as part of my practice, that was a way for me to connect with God and and it's not part of my practice. Now, it might be again, but I've made it a practice to mix up my practice so that I'm constantly evolving in the different ways that I get to connect with God. And I feel like a lot of institutions don't give a lot of space for that, that it becomes like very regimented and very regular. And again, there's some some value to that. I'm sure it's comforting and feels really safe and helpful and nourishing to many people. But maybe, you know, going back to the nourishing and energizing, perhaps sometimes it's not as energizing because it's the same thing, the same. And oftentimes routines kind of just become routine, and we aren't as present, and so I love this idea of just wiping all that clean and allowing people to experiment and play, and in so doing, inviting so many diverse and a large vocabulary and possibility of ways to connect with God, be it through dance or stretching or sitting or whatever. What are some of the ways that you've experienced or seen that have been kind of interesting and creative? Maybe?

Karmen  
Well, Union made a decision years before I got there, to remove all the pews from the chapel. But. Which I was told was not received very well at the time, any change in a church setting does not is not received well, but in doing so, it allows them to rearrange the sanctuary or the chapel in any kind of way. So I was able to experience and around. I was able to experience sitting on meditation mats. We've done a chapel where, like, it was just two lines, and we faced each other, and like, as we went through ministry, you're looking at the person in front of you, and it's almost like you're connecting and communicating in a way that we're not looking just at a central figure, but we're looking at each other. A drag chapel, like I said, a DJ chapel, where it was music, but it was themed towards and it's everyday music, but it was themed towards, like and David danced, and then there would be like, a Rihanna song played, or everyone doing the electric slide in the chapel, because there's no chairs, it removed it all, but you left again feeling energized and like you had communed with God. And I think I was very open to those things, because during my seeking time, I was able to go, Oh, God does not live in those four walls. God lives within every soul. And so I can be out in nature and experience God. I can watch this butterfly do its thing and experience God. I can be with animals. I can ride a horse. You can be I went to a friend's birthday brunch in New York, and brunch is a whole thing, as you know. And I was at the bar. I was at school. I went to the bar to get a drink, and someone walked up and said, Wil I heard you're a minister. And I'm like, Well, I'm in school right now, but, you know, I'm trying to figure out. And she was telling me about her church experience, and I'm affirming her, but I'm just talking, and within two or three minutes, there's like 10 people circled around me at this bar, and we're actually just having a ministry moment, and I'm going, this is possible outside of the program of, Do this, do this, do this, do this. And the people are open, and it made me really switch my entire thinking to differently. Of, I don't invite people to come. My goal is to go out to people, where they are. You can also have ministry there. And I don't go with the intention. I'm going to minister to you today. But you go and you you break bread with people and having a conversation. Anything can happen. You go and have take walks. Anything can happen. So, yeah, I'm more about, let's go to the people. Don't keep asking the people to

Wil Fisher  
come to you. Yeah, taking down the walls and then, yeah, going outside. You know, one of the things you talked about in one of your YouTubes was the margins, and the value of being in the margins, rather than just continuously coming back to this, yeah, this boxed in idea, and so it sort of resonates for me in that respect too.

Karmen  
Yeah, I love talking about the margins, because there's this colloquialism that people say now, like, I'm for the streets, which is like, Oh, I'm out. I'm out here this summer, or it's a hot girl summer, or whatever. And I always say I'm for the margins like I'm for the fringes on the outsides, because if we're all fighting to be in this very center that is too small and too stingy to hold, hold us all. And so only a few get there. And then when you're there, there's not enough space to stretch out, there's not enough space to dance. There's not enough space to experiment and commune in different ways. You've got to fit within the center. So I'm like, send me to the margins, where they're expansive and ever moving, because the more people come the margins are not finite. So I when I think of even the scripture of I go forth to prepare a place for you, for in my father's house, there's many places to stay. I'm thinking that's the margins. There's so much room and the margins, but trying to get to the center, it's so stingy. So I just tell people I'm from the margins. I love to play and stretch out and try and and that's where all of the misfits are. So I love

Wil Fisher  
it. Love that, yeah, yeah. I also love this, this notion that the margins are where the expansion happens, right? It's like you're expanding out and that's coming. It's it's expanding out that the margins get bigger and broader and more expansive. So why not move towards that place of expansion, that that cross section? So what has it been like for you from a Baptist church, finding your your relationship with God, and contending with your your queerness, with being a gay man? How has that been part of your journey? How has it impacted and obviously, you have a book so with that title, so. I'm curious what it's been like for you.

Karmen  
So the process has been affirming at home, not so affirming at church. And you know, as a kid, I'm not even identifying in the 80s with gay or anything gay at all. I'm just like, Oh, I'm just a kid. But people could see the difference. And I say that this woman, when I was nine years old, we went to visit because we had moved away. We went and visited our home church again when we visited my grandmother, and we were out in the foyer waiting to go into the service, and the woman looked at me and says, you know, I didn't like you when you went to church here, I was nine years old, and I'm like, Huh? She was like, Yeah, your mom let you do whatever you wanted to do, which was the opposite of my mother. She was very strict on anything. But what the woman, I think, was trying to say was she didn't make you conform. You got to wear long hair, you got to be different, you got to do what you wanted to do. And that irritated this woman, and she felt the need to tell me, wow. So for me, my mom and my grandmother were like, he's fine. They've never asked me to be anything else in my life. My mom just said to me when I was a teenager, without ever having a conversation, she just said, You can be whoever or whatever you want to be, just be you don't be a copy of anyone else. And that's all she ever said to me. So I felt a firm in being me until I left the house and leaving the house I'm now like, always different, always on the margins, always the outcast. And so it was this dual thing of, I love God, and my family says I'm fine. My family doesn't have an issue, but if God has an issue with me, then what my family says doesn't mean a thing to me, because if God hates me, then I need to do something to change. And I think that's where I cling to church more trying to be more spiritual, more religious. I'm going to go more I'm going to pay attention. I'm going to do all the things so that God is proud of me. And I remember as a teenager praying one night like I'm going to go to sleep when I wake up in the morning. I want you to have taken these gay feelings away. I don't want to be like this. I want you know you to be proud of me. I don't want to be different than everybody else. And I woke up and nothing had happened, and then I was devastated, but it's taken some years to finally realize that it wasn't that God was mad at me and didn't answer my prayer, which is what I thought it was that God had called me to be gay, and God was not willing to UN call me. I say this because Reverend Ed bacon and several other people say God loves things. James Cone, God loves things by becoming them. And so God became a part of me, which is also gay, so that some gay boy can also be ministered to, some queer person can also be ministered to, because if we are talked about by ministers but not talked to, then someone has to also minister to the q plus community. And God called me to experience what it is to be q plus so that I can also minister to Q plus people.

Wil Fisher  
Yeah, beautiful, yeah. It's interesting this idea of, Oh, God didn't answer my prayers. It's like sometimes our prayers are not in the field that God can answer them. We are, we are limited in our scope of understanding, and so we might be praying a prayer that is counter to God's bigger plan, and not actually in our greatest and highest interest. And I think that's a beautiful example of that where where God is always going to serve our greatest and highest interest, even when we don't know what that is. And so I think it's beautiful that you were able to come to that, to be able to realize and accept yourself and recognize that being q plus is actually part of the gift of who you are and part of the call that you are following on this in this life path. Yeah. And then, how was it, though, with your church community, or how has that been and, and specifically, you know, your your book, the title holy queer, is provocative. The coming out of Christ, is that the tagline? Yeah, it's a provocative title. I love it, by the way, and I'm curious how it's been to, you know, in some, in some ways, be a provocateur, a catalyst for people to to have their thoughts and ideas challenged in the area of. Of Christian spirituality.

Karmen  
Well, first I will give a disclaimer to say that I don't believe I'm the first. I believe that there has been many other voiceless people who've come before me carrying a similar message, but in being labeled a first to bring in this black, queer, gay theology, I would just say there are no prizes for being first, because you get all of the initial shock and awe and and I wasn't even trying to be provocative. I literally prayed about the title because I wanted to call it the gift, God's gift of being gay. I was like, I have another title for you, and when I heard it, I was like, I don't know that I can say this, but it has not been all bad. I mean, there are some staunch people. If you've ever been in a storefront church, you know, there are some people were just like, no change. I'm not changing. We've always done it like this, but there has been some beautiful things to happen with this book. Being able to talk to people like you and reach people, as I say, going to people. I've gotten to preach at Riverside Church in New York, which is, I mean, the legacy of Martin Luther King, Desmond Tutu. I'm like, I'm standing in the same pulpit as them on Pride Sunday last year, preaching, it has been a blessing in that way. But I would say the thing that it did was twofold. Writing this book liberated me to truly understand my place within the world and what God is calling me to do, and when I get these messages, of these DMS from people I don't know who purchased the book or gotten the audio book, and they just keep I mean, it's almost like never ending, but it is, I had the same experience. I had the same experience. I didn't know anyone else had that experience, that that is the gift of community and of telling your story, because, as the scripture says, We overcome by the by the power of our testimonies. And I'm like by me telling my story and giving you some theology in between, and also critiquing the institution that I do love, known as the Black church, it has given so many other q plus people a mirror or representation to say, Oh, I wasn't the only one. So they come out of isolation and it becomes more community. So that's been the gift,

Wil Fisher  
yeah, what a beautiful gift that is. And I'd love you to share more. Let's, let's look specifically at the holy queer line. And one of the things that I talked to a lot of people on this podcast about, because this podcast focus is on queerness and spirituality and the intersection, and I feel like that line, I mean, I like, you know, my podcast is called queerly Beloved. It could very well have also been called the Holy queer. Like, really encapsulates that intersection beautifully. So I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the intersection of of queer and and spirituality and and, and maybe, if it comes in, you know, for for your perspective, you also are holding the black identity. So I don't know if there's a a perspective that encapsulates all three of those intersections, but I'd be really interested to hear anything about that as well.

Karmen  
Yeah, so I look at holy by its definition, set apart to be used by God and

Wil Fisher  
queer. Can you say that one more time? Set apart to be used

Karmen  
used by God? Only set apart,

Wil Fisher  
set apart to be used by God. I love that. Okay, cool.

Karmen  
And then queer, and I'll use Bell Hooks, the late Bell Hooks definition, which she says in her one of her lectures at the new school, not in just who you're sleeping with, although that can be a part of it, but queer, as in the being that is at odds with everything around it, and has to create a space and cultivate a space in which to live and to breathe and to exist, to thrive. And when I think about Jesus set apart to be used by God, and at odds with everything around him, all the systems in the status quo, and having to create a space and cultivate some disciples and put together a little set apart world in which to live and breathe and thrive that is holy. Queer. To me, holy and queer are one in the same. To me, I don't see a difference between them, because if you are queer, you're at odds with everything around you. Mm. And when you realize the value of being on the margins, when you realize the value, the gift, the divineness of being q plus both male and female spirited, then you could say, oh, there is a calling here. I am. Holy. God didn't just create me like everybody else, but God had something special and divine for

Wil Fisher  
me. Yeah, beautiful. What an invitation. Yeah, the the piece that I get I'm a little stuck on is being at odds with, and I wonder if you could speak more about what your perspective is that is on that energetically, I'm feeling like, Hmm, because it is a gift, right? And there's this gift of getting to create since, since there's a rejection from the center, or not being able to fit in, there's a need to be on the margins and and then create something that does allow for belonging and to be held in in the space of of God. And so I'm just wondering when you, when you talk about being at odds with is that a bad thing, or is it, can there be something harmonic about it?

Karmen  
Oh, I definitely look at being at odds almost as a badge of honor. It's that you don't fit the status quo. It is you don't, and I often say this like you as a q plus person, you've walked into a room at least once before where your mere presence was a disruption. Do anything. You didn't say it, you just showed up. And they're like, this person is here, or this drag queen is here, and you're like, I just walked in the room. You're at odds with the status quo, and it's fine. Your light is shining brightly. Yes, you can't unshine The light that you didn't give yourself again. It's a gift. So you just have to either walk in the room and shine and let them be at odds with you, or step outside the room and create something even bigger. But either way, you're at odds with the surroundings of the status quo, the status quo, thinking, for me, the church, and thinking that anything gay is just against God, and God hates you and hate the sin and not the sin and all. And I'm like, I'm just here. I'm just a kid who loves church and loves God, yeah, what

Wil Fisher  
I'm hearing in that, and I love the idea of disruption, even being this positive gift, right? Being this positive gift. And what I'm tuning into now that you've you've clarified that a little bit for me, is, is the gift of invitation towards more expansion, towards more creation, towards towards allowing for something new, for something bigger and broader, and to move beyond the margins as a result of being that disruption or being at odds with that feels that feels juicy to

Karmen  
me. Yeah, I like to end all of my talks by saying, Let disruption be the catalyst for your liberation. And I mean that like in its literal form, because we often look at disruption as though it has come against us, and when we can maybe switch our paradigm to say, what is this disruption here to do for me? And so we'll talk about sometimes like, Okay, you're standing in line at the post office and it's taking forever, and you have somewhere to be, but it won't move, and you're getting frustrated, disruption. But I always tell people, what is it bringing you to in this moment? Are you supposed to be present? Is there an opportunity to love? Is there somebody who needed to see a smile, or was it something that you were really frustrated about, and it's maybe protective and it's keeping you in this place? But how can it be working for you? How is it liberating you from this anger and this tension and this so when we start to switch those perspectives from disruption is just here to dismantle all the time is a bad thing. I think disruption is a beautiful thing if we can embrace it, because it continues to build the margins

Wil Fisher  
beautiful. And now that you're speaking about it, I can also see how disruption could be perceived in falling in love, for example, it's like, oh, my life is just normal. I go through my life day to day, and then this guy appears, and now I'm falling in love, and it's disrupting my life. And it's, it's, it's calling me into presence. It's moving me out of the old routine, or the asleepness that I was experiencing, it's really waking me up. So it could be someone cutting me off on the highway, or it could be a really handsome man smiling at me and giving me his number. Both are disruptions in this. Right? And both are gifts of invitation into presence, into creation, some creating something new, and really dancing with life in this more present way.

Karmen  
Yes, I mean, it's like you've already read the book, because I use that very example of, I say that you you've prayed a prayer. You want to find love. You want companionship. And one day, as you're going along your way, love enters. And whether you look at love as the metaphor of Jesus and God and or if it's just a person, love enters. And when love enters a space, it disrupts it. Because you were on your way, you had plans, you got a date on Friday with someone else, but you just met this man today, and everything in your world is like perfect. This is it. I feel drawn to you. But had you known yesterday that you were going to meet the love of your life today, maybe you would have did things different. But now you you have no choice. You either go with the liberation of love, with the disruption. Or you go, Hmm, I'll wait, and maybe you'll be here two weeks after my date. No people, people have welcomed that type of disruption. And if we see it like that, then disruption starts to be the thing that we stop and go, well, it is uncomfortable. Disruption is not easy. I'm not trying to say that. I'm saying it's uncomfortable, and when you hear, when you see, when you feel the disruption, stop for just a moment in the invitation to ask yourself, what is it liberating me into

Wil Fisher  
beautiful Yeah, I mean, any anything that is a catalyst for change is uncomfortable from my experience, and part of our mission is to also reframe that and to be able to see how being uncomfortable is a sign of our growth. And yeah, I love asking that question of what, what is the liberation in this? Because it is always a liberation if we care to see it through that lens, if we care to choose it as such, yeah,

Karmen  
think about the Buddhist tenant that, like nothing is permanent. Maybe it's simply just liberating us from being static. Nothing is permanent. Okay, so I do this every day I go here. And why is it disruptive today? Because nothing is permanent, but you can be called to this present moment and experience the joy of something new. You're not in control, yeah, but you get to experience something new, and that is life and living. We shouldn't have a groundhog day experience where everything is the same every day or every service looks the same. It should be something new,

Wil Fisher  
beautiful and and the invitation that's coming up for me is, how do we create these disturbances? And I feel the need to, like, call them delightful disturbances or something. They're not all they're not always pleasant. But how can we invite more of these delightful disturbances into our lives, be it a a choice to have a dance party for one you know, suddenly in the afternoon, or be it a choice to introduce yourself to that that kind looking stranger. But how do we find these delightful disturbances that can create these pathways to liberation and to more connection with God in this dance of life,

Karmen  
I think we have to choose to do something different. Many of us who drive or bike or take the subway, know the route home and to work like we sit like the back of our hand. And so there are many spaces where we unplug and are not conscious because we know, we know how many steps, we know which stop sign, we know where the COP is, so that we, you know, don't speed through that. We know this. But maybe on those routes of that we know we stop and say, let me just act like I don't know. Oh, that house has a new color on the door. Oh, when did they put that up there? And you begin to open yourselves to new possibilities. If you walk the same way every day from your car to the front door, maybe go around a different way, maybe park in a different spot. It's not it doesn't feel like a huge thing, but these are little disruptions to your day. And I pray a prayer often that says, God, let me be open to the opportunities to love. And that means I have to be present in the room, in the space, walking outside, because I never know if I'm going to encounter somebody or some being that needs a moment of love. And I'm not saying I'm walking through the streets healing people. I'm like simply some people. You can see the frustration, and you just go, just give them a smile. And we know this, never underestimate the power of a smile. So it is standing in line and seeing the person frustrated behind you because the Casher is slow and so you say, I'll buy the next person's coffee. Just let me be open to the opportunities to love Mm,

Wil Fisher  
hmm. I love that. I love that. Yeah. The other thought that came up for me in seeking these delightful disturbances was to to ask, what would it be like if I were experiencing this for the first time, and to ask that question when you're seeing your husband of 20 years, you know, like, what would it be like to be experiencing this dinner date with my husband, as if it was the first time. Or for me, I take a yoga class that is the same exact postures every single time. And I was just thinking about it earlier today, when I was in class, I was like, Man, I really like, lately have been really checking out. I go through it all and I sweat and I I know that it's serving my body, but I'm, I'm pretty checked out because I know exactly what's going to happen next. And so asking that question, like, what would it be like if I was experiencing this as if it was the first time, and bringing that invitation of presence into the routines, into the typical things that we experience day to day.

Karmen  
A good friend of mine who teaches at the New School, Michael Robertson, he and his co teacher, Dr Semper, they taught ballroom, ballroom culture at the new school a few years ago, and they teach it every few years. And in this book called and the category is by Ricky Tucker. He talks about he took the class, and they start the class by telling them, I want you to be an enlightened witness. So when you are watching this clip, when you are out in the world, when you're watching a performance, when you're seeing something, be asking yourself, what do I see? What do I hear? And what am I experiencing? And some people say, What am I feeling, but what am I experiencing? Feels more expansive to me. So if we thought of our encounters in that way of that, I want to be an enlightened witness, not that I just witnessed life past me, or witnessed this class or something I did recently was watch bridgerton Because I like that show. I just finished it last night, yeah, but I'm on my second round of bridgerton now, because now I'm watching the stories of the fashion and the scenery. I know the story now, but now I get to see how these other elements are adding or characters. So it's now really, what am I seeing beyond just the characters? Yeah, I want to be an enlightened witness in life.

Wil Fisher  
Yes, and God wants that for us. You know, if God wants us to experience this life and our our best way to do that, I believe, is to commit to presence and to keep coming back to presence that in order for us to fully feel and and delightfully in a Juicy way, experience the richest of life. It's to keep coming back to presence and and I think that's a really powerful invitation. I think

Karmen  
I just want to say it's not so easy. I talk about it, I practice it, because it's not so easy. At any given moment, I'll pick up my phone and immediately go to Tiktok or Instagram, sure, even if I'm meaning to go to my music app, but it's like I'm not plugged in. I pick up my phone and I unplug already and know where I'm going. And so it even I have to be conscious of even picking up my phone and being present. Of what am I picking up this phone for? And am I escaping the moment by just picking up the phone, filling up the space. Yes, it's not easy. I'm practicing,

Wil Fisher  
Yeah, same I've definitely had those moments where I'm like, I'm like, Wait, what was I going on my phone for in the first place? Right? You're just, was just set an alarm, and now you're like, down this rabbit hole, like, learning about I don't know, something I do not need to learn about on Tiktok. Yeah. It's really interesting. Anything else you want to share from the intersection of being black, queer and spiritual and Christian, spiritual, I feel like I've talked to I've definitely talked to many people of color around this same theme of queerness and spirituality, but I don't know if I've really invited anyone to share from that tripart intersection. Is there anything in particular that feels helpful to share around what that's been like to have. Experience of blackness, queerness and this commitment to God,

Karmen  
yeah, in the book I reference Dolores Williams calls it tri apartheid. Suffering to be black and queer and male is for mine, because as as a black person, there's a stigma as a black male. There's a stigma to the outside world and then to the outside world and then to other black males. There's a stigma of being black male and gay, and even to black women, to be black male and gay. So it puts you at this stage. This serendipitous intersection that, as Baldwin says in the last interview, and I'm paraphrasing, that at this intersection, there can be a self redemptive quality that gives you a better understanding of not only self, but of the other, and it's not something where I'm like, Oh no, it's just roses and it's beautiful. It is very heartbreaking to be in the skin and love people who are in the skin, and they be your brothers and sisters and cousins and aunts and uncles and all of that, and they look at you like an outsider. They look at you less than. And then to leave the confines of your community and your people and step outside into the world, and you're seen as less than. And so there really has to be some introspection, because there's a lot of time isolated and alone. And in that, I think that I've been able to cultivate the self redemptive quality of learning myself being enlightened. My practice is learning what works for me and how to restore myself. Where do I get sustenance from when my own community is rejecting me and the world is rejecting me? And in that, it helps me see the other in a lot more graceful way. It helps me see the struggle in someone else. It helps me see the isolation. It helps me see the sadness. It helps me also to honor the joy when I see other people having joyful moments. I'm I'm what they would call a cry baby, because if you have a one of those stories where someone comes out of nowhere and gives you, like, $5,000 I'm in tears. Or if someone just like, showed up at your house was like, you know, you're gonna get the night off and we're gonna babysit the kids and you're gonna get a week full I'm just like, that is so great. Like, so I I resonate with the challenge of being the other and being othered, because that's where I've lived and spent a lot of my time. But the gift of that is that I've been able to see myself, understand myself, which allows me to see others. And I'll sum that up by saying, I say that heal people. Heal

Wil Fisher  
people. Yes, beautiful. And for folks who have had the experience of being from marginalized communities, being from oppressed communities, there's been a strong need to heal. I mean, I believe that everybody needs healing. But those who have had those experience, they likely have been on a even bigger, more epic healing journey, which perhaps, in some ways, can set them up for being on the other side of that to heal in a good way, to heal with that compassion, with that grace, with that love.

Karmen  
Yeah, it's, it's how you're I don't want to say how you're going to get through. It's a necessity, because the other side of that is carrying around a bunch of pain and anger and bitterness and isolation, and that is the antithesis of the beloved community. That is the antithesis of love. And so I'm like, either you choose to say there has to be a better way and I'll do the work, or you choose to live in the anger and there's no judgment on my behalf for anyone, for their choice. I just chose that I could not stay isolated, I couldn't keep quiet. I couldn't not be who I am. My light precedes me. So I'm I would love to blend into the background some days and have no one notice me, but I'm like, that's not the gift I was given. So to make a choice to own this or be afraid of it the entire

Wil Fisher  
time, yeah, and the more of us who make that choice, the more that the folks who are struggling with that choice can see that it's possible. Because I feel like many people don't make the choice to go into their healing process because they don't think it's possible that they they are so caught in their lack of self worth and. In self doubt that they don't think it's possible for them. And I feel like your story, people with stories like yours, can help folks be inspired to see that it is possible, that we can all find healing, that it's that it's available for all of us.

Karmen  
Well, as you see, here comes the cry baby again, because that has been one of the hardest things for me to wrap my head around. I understand, well, I'll say wrap my heart around. I understand it in my head, but that I'm representation for other people, even when they say it to me, it's a really challenging thing that I have to sit with, because I still see I'm I'm, I'm doing the work. I'm practicing this thing called life. And they in my mind, I I think that they are going, Oh, you've made it to some place, when really they're just looking at the possibilities. But sometimes it's really difficult for me to hear you are representation, and it's a beautiful thing, but it's also challenging, because I'm like, and I'm just like, you, and I hope that you see that part too.

Wil Fisher  
Yeah, beautiful. And with that, you get to find that moment under the tree, you know, where you can just have your light protected in the shade, you know, and find those moments to dance with joy and to let it all out and and to keep being in this process. You know, I resonate with that a lot too. So yeah, thanks for sharing that. Any final words that you want to share with the listeners as we wrap up today,

Karmen  
I just want to remind people that you are here for a reason. You've been called to this moment, to this podcast, to this place you were in in life, for a reason. And if you focus on the opportunity to love, and that love can start with yourself, focus on where this disruption, where this dis ease, is causing you pain, just like a doctor goes, you know, let me know to hurt here, hurt here, and you go, ouch. That's where they know where to treat, find the ouch and let that disruption be the catalyst for your liberation.

Wil Fisher  
Yes, amen, thank you so much. Carmen, this was a total pleasure.

Karmen  
The pleasure was all mine happy to come back again