Bridging Science & Spirit with Mira Funk

In this episode, Wil sits down with Mira Funk, LCSW (she/her), a Harvard-educated queer, nonbinary psychotherapist and psychedelic guide specializing in 5-MeO-DMT, N,N-DMT, and salvia divinorum. Mira brings a rare “neuroscience geek meets sacred mystery” approach to psychedelic healing and integration—bridging somatic work, nondual spirituality, and practical trauma-informed care.

Together, Wil and Mira explore what 5-MeO-DMT is (and what it isn’t), why dosing and context matter so much, and how this medicine can support deep healing—especially around fear, shame, the nervous system, and identity. They also discuss gender liberation, the body’s role in trauma storage and release, and why Mira is passionate about ethical and precise approaches to working with 5-MeO-DMT.

In This Episode, We Explore

• The “geek vs. woo” false split—and why both languages can point to the same mystery
• 5-MeO-DMT vs. N,N-DMT vs. “DMT” as a broader tryptamine family
• What 5-MeO-DMT can feel like: expansion, presence, release, and the “deep tissue massage” metaphor
• Trauma-informed step-wise sessions: “dip a toe,” integrate, then gradually deepen
• The “full release” / unity-consciousness territory—and why it’s not the only point of healing
• Fear of death, “annihilation anxiety,” and the ripple effects of practicing surrender
• Wil shares a powerful one-on-one, ritualized death/rebirth experience in an MDMA-assisted therapy session
• Psychedelics and gender exploration: shame, freedom, identity, and the paradox of nonduality + authenticity
• Mira’s experience of gender liberation and family repair—including staying in relationship without abandoning self
• Rectal administration of 5-MeO-DMT: what it is, how it’s handled ethically/privately, and why it can be uniquely pelvic/root-focused for some people
• A grounded take on “code of reality” laser experiments: perception, priming, meaning-making, and humility
• Why Mira believes 5-MeO-DMT can be a powerful option for both first-timers and experienced psychonauts—when held safely

Connect with Mira Funk

Website: https://www.unjourneying.com/

Youtube Channel : https://www.youtube.com/@unjourneying

Connect with Wil

Website & coaching: https://www.wil-fullyliving.com/

Upcoming Awakened Hearts Group Retreat: https://www.wil-fullyliving.com/events

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Transcript

Wil Fisher  
Mira funk, welcome to queerly Beloved. So happy to have you.

Mira  
Thank you wil and so appreciative to be here. So much gratitude I'm feeling well.

Wil Fisher  
I'm feeling so much gratitude as well. Just so happy to receive that email from you, reaching out with interest to connect, because you really are a perfect guest for this podcast. And I know just having checked out your website and some of your media appearances that you've got so much to offer the listeners. So again, thank you for making this time.

Mira  
Thank you. Yeah. I appreciate you saying that. Yeah. For a moment, as I was considering applying, I thought, am I? Am I woo? Woo enough for this podcast. I tend to be this kind of, like, neuroscience geek, you know, a lot of times when it comes to spirituality, but I was like, You know what? I'm just I'm just gonna trust my intuition, and I feel like it's gonna work out. We're gonna connect, and it's gonna be great. I love that. I love that.

Wil Fisher  
And I think that there is a cross section where that you know, that geeky, sciency stuff meets the Woo. Woo, yeah, and it's just about the language that we're using. I couldn't agree more, yeah. And certainly I tend to use a lot more the woo language, but I love having people who know the more sciencey language. And certainly I think it's helpful also for listeners who might feel more connected to the more scientific approach and maybe more questioning of some of the woo, woo stuff. And I think that there could be a going too far in either direction.

Mira  
So Exactly, yeah, it's like a pendulum. I think you can strike the right balance. I think that the maybe the presumption of the geeky language is that we actually know what's going on, you know, because it's the right language. It's like we really understand what's going on with psychedelics or with energy, and we really don't, you know at the end of the day. So it's you know, whether you're saying, you know, someone's connecting with spirit or their default mode network activity is, you know, reducing in the in the FMRI machine or something like that. It's like, yeah, really don't understand exactly what's happening. They're just different, kind of like jargons or patois, you know, to describe these different processes. So I think, yeah, I think it's like, good to be flexible and adaptable and kind of like a polyglot in this realm. And I try to just adapt my language to whatever client I'm working with so that it resonates with them and and I have to confess my just my bias is in that more like geeky kind of rationality side. And I just try to be aware of that and own it, you know,

Wil Fisher  
yeah, because there's, it's a gift as well. And it's interesting. I was talking to a gentleman recently who was saying, you know, if it isn't scientifically proven that it's not for me and I'm not going to receive any kind of healing modality that doesn't have that isn't backed up by science. And I said, you know, science is only so far along in researching this stuff, and so what if you consider just being open and seeing how it feels like really having firsthand experience with some of these approaches? I mean, obviously, if you feel safe and comfortable to do that, but I do think that having an openness can support folks who are considering these kinds of explorations Absolutely, all right, so we're already diving in, but let's, let's slow down and take a breath. I'm just going to ask you the question I start all these interviews with, which is, who are you in this moment, but tell me by describing a drag avatar that embodies that and by drag it doesn't have to be like Ru Paul's drag race. It can be any kind of Avatar.

Mira  
Yeah, all right, I'm gonna stay with that for a moment. Yeah. You know what's coming up for me is I find that my cats are great spiritual inspirations for me. I have two cats, there's, there's Tara and guapo. I'm particularly channeling Tara, I feel like right now, she's, she's an elder, you know, she's 18, which is incredible. And she's this orange and white Tabby with a pink nose. And I'm just like connecting with her energy. You know, the as you may know, in the Tibetan tradition, like the Taras are like these different deities, like green Tara, white Tara. There's 21 of them, actually. And so I'm getting kind of this, like, I guess, I guess, if I had to call this, this character a name I'd call her, like rainbow Tara, or something like imagining this tapestry weaving of the different Taras. And, yeah, my cat has, like a, I think with her age, she has a quiet confidence that when she comes into her room, you just have the sense that she is. Very present, and she's in charge, and I respect that about her. And so, yeah, I guess I'm trying to maybe open into a sense of grounded confidence.

Wil Fisher  
Yeah, beautiful. Yeah. I love that. I love that our pets can help us see ways of being and to explore and experiment with with different ways and be influenced by that. You know, it reminds me of a time when a ex boyfriend of mine, who was an actor, decided to dress up as my dog for Christmas, for Halloween, and and he took on its personality all night. And it was like one of the sweetest gifts he's ever given me, just because it was like I had my dog with me. It felt like I had my dog with me for the entire night.

Mira  
Anyways, so cute.

Wil Fisher  
Yeah, it was really cute. So for me, my drag avatar also feels rainbowy, and I'm wearing sort of something rainbowy.

Mira  
Yeah, that's a perfect match there. Yeah,

Wil Fisher  
yeah, thanks. And, whereas your rainbow Tara had an elder energy, I'm in a more childlike, youthful energy. I'm feeling bubbly. I'm not exactly sure why. Maybe I because I had a bubbly workout, and I took a couple sips of caffeine coffee. I don't usually drink coffee, and I've got some fun plans this evening that I'm excited for, and I was excited to talk to you. So, just feeling bubbly. And so, yeah, so she's a young but wise girl who loves wearing rainbows and pigtails, and her name is something like Sammy, and yeah, she's just, she's arriving, like, ready to geek out and to get woo, woo. And, like, hear about you. And, yeah, that's the energy I'm bringing with me today. Love it. It feels like

Mira  
we have lots of different energies here that are very balanced out, like the geek, the Woo, woo, the elder the child, yeah, intergenerational kinds of, yeah. It's like a family reunion or something, I don't know.

Wil Fisher  
Yeah, I love that. I love that. And we got the cat and the dog. Yes, yes. So good, so good, yeah. So let's get into it. And I guess where I'd like to start is the juiciest stuff for me, which is the five Meo DMT stuff. And I'd love for you to just share with listeners who maybe don't know much about that medicine, what it is. And honestly, what I'd love is to take them through like, what a possible experience of it might be, perhaps by sharing an experience of yours. And if that feels too deep in the waters, feel free to dial me back and,

Mira  
oh no, I'm, I'm ready to dive all the way. Okay, you kind of have to with this medicine, because it's right, it's so deep, so, so a little bit of five of you. DMT, 101, which is, which is necessary, because it's very easy to get confused, especially with this, these three letters DMT, which people Bandy around a lot, you know, on the internet. And people get very easily confused over what they mean and which one is which, and stuff like that. And so it's good to disambiguate them. One of the things that's really interesting about DMT that a lot of people don't know is it's actually like a class of molecules that are called the tryptamines. So there's, there's many different molecules. Different molecules that, if you look at the chemical structure, they end in this DMT, and actually includes psilocybin. So this is like a little known thing, as if you actually look at the and psilocybin, for those who may not know, is the psychoactive ingredient in magic mushrooms, right? So if you look at the chemical formula for psilocybin, it's actually four po DMT. Almost nobody talks about that like people will say, Oh, I'm micro dosing mushrooms. I did a mushroom journey over the weekend. You never hear anybody say, I went really deep with four po DMT. Or the way computers don't talk like that, because it's just not in common parlance. And so I think when people hear DMT, there's this assumption that it's some kind of chemical, or especially in the hair five mat, like some kind of designer drug, or something like that. And so usually when people so within that this class of the tryptamines, as I mentioned, there's there's mushrooms, our trypta means Ayahuasca is also a tryptamine, because the active ingredient of that is nn DMT. And so then we have to distinguish when people say DMT, like, usually when they say that people talking about, I smoked DMT or vape DMT or something like that, or had a DMT vision quest, like they're usually talking about nn DMT, which you can smoke or vape, and it's the active ingredient in Ayahuasca. But then this one is different five, Emmy O, dt. So it's a unique animal in the same family. Again, it's like a family gathering. Yeah, it has its own spirit and its own personality. It's of the tryptamines. It is the most powerful by weight. So you know, for like, a breakthrough dose of ndmt, if you're free basing, if you're smoking out of a pipe, for example, or we're talking about maybe, talking about maybe, like 30 milligrams to depends on the person 30 to 50, let's say, with five of you DMT, it can be as little as, like 10 milligrams. So we're talking about, like, three to five times more powerful by weight. And it's also, what's cool to know about, it is, it's, it is present in the natural world, and it's also present in our bodies, which is really, really cool. So there's another thing people don't often know about, five Meo, DMT. It's often associated very heavily with this Toad, this Bufo Alvarez or Sonoran Desert toad. And so people often talk about, you know, smoking the toad. There was this old conception from decade misconception about, like, licking toads. Just like, not a thing you cannot lick snorting. It's not orally active. I don't know exactly how that myth got started, but yeah, so basically, when people are consuming this molecule, or taking this the sacrament, depending on the language you want to use, they are usually using it in one of two forms. One is the the what's called Bufo, which is the actual Toad venom. So that means people are actually taking these toads there. There's you actually have to squeeze this gland on the toad, squeeze out this venom, dry it, and then you can smoke it. So that's like one way to do it. But the way that I serve is actually using synthetic FIFA Mayo DMT, which is it's made in a laboratory, and it's bio identical. It's the exact same molecule, but it doesn't harm the toads at all, which is an ecological concern of mine. But also, I prefer the five immuno DMT, the pure synthetic because it is pure, so you really know exactly what you're getting, and you can dose it very precisely. Because one of the big challenges with Bufo is, when you get that secretion, you know, you don't know exactly how much DMT is in there, and it could be anywhere from 10% to 20% or more. And so you just put a few crystals in a pipe, and there's this kind of guessing game of, like, we don't know how much you're gonna get, and it's so powerful that that can be, I think, risky. Plus, there's all sorts of other stuff from the toad, like these, they have these molecules, and they're called cardiac glycosides, which tend to cause more, like, vasoconstriction. So we're talking about, you know, health screening. You know, someone has any kind of, like, heart condition. You know, the Bufo is, like, a little more dicey in that way, like pure synthetic is much gentler on your heart. But anyway, let's talk about, yeah, like the effects, because I'm just sure about the background, yeah, no, that's great, though that's helpful, but it's good for people to know what, exactly what we're talking about, absolutely. So, yeah. So this molecule. It's, it's really extraordinary, you know, and I'm so passionate about it because I tried in my own practice. I mean, I've worked with many different medicines, and each medicine has their place, and different people resonate with different medicines. But for me, personally, and then working with clients, I have seen absolutely like the most fast acting and deepest transformations with five omega, which is the reason that I serve it. I mean, it's like, if you're comparing, for example, like I first, when I first started doing guiding work, I was working with with mushrooms and psilocybin, and that's something, you know, where you're taking the medicine. And it's, you know, maybe, like, a four to six hour kind of experience. And, you know, don't get me wrong. I don't want to say mushrooms are somehow lesser than because, yeah, it was different, and they have their own arc and their own rhythm, and they're beautiful. And I got so much benefit out of that. But what I found for a lot of people, and I'm leading up into, you know, comparing five Meo, is that, you know, it would be such a long period of time, especially for a first time person who'd never done psychedelics before, and I work with a lot of first time people in a very sensitive way. And it's such a long time to kind of sign on to, it's sort of like getting on a roller coaster, and you like, can't get off for five hours. And when we're talking about trying to serve somebody in a very trauma informed way, if someone has a lot of trauma in their past, and then they're suddenly in this experience that's like, so long that roller coaster may go into territory that they didn't sign up for, yeah, and that can be very overwhelming, and sometimes mushrooms, you know, especially if it's your first time, can be very disorienting and confusing. And had a number of people where they'd come, you know, back and be like, you know, I spent three hours just in this weird fever dream, imagining that I was God. And, you know, I don't know what to make of that is so confusing and stuff like that. And there's also so little interaction, in a way, with me as the facilitator. Because when you take mushrooms, it's just like, Okay, bye, bye. I'll see you in five hours. I mean, I'm there, you know, of course, but there's not really room for for dialog and integration. So that's where five Meo DMT came into play. Ace and my practice, because it's just so radically different than that. So when you when you vape five Meo, it is an extremely brief experience. So I can, literally, I can take somebody who's never done psychedelics before, and I can give them a very gentle vape pen, and they can have an experience that lasts literally five minutes, that's very gentle, and that's amazing. It's amazing to do that, offer that to somebody, especially if somebody has a lot of fear about losing control or what's gonna happen, or, you know, I don't know, they get to really dip their toe in the water, which you almost can't really do with with most other psychedelics. And then they get to really, you know, integrate that, live with me, which is amazing. So I give them that first dose. We have a little conversation, you know, how was that? What happened, you know? And a lot of people just say, so it's usually like at the low dose is, what tends to happen to people, is it's, I would say, the very lightest doses. And again, everybody's different, but the general map that I see is, there's a sense of expansion, a sense of opening, a sense of presence. The senses get more vivid, and as you get a little bit deeper, it starts to feel like a deep tissue massage for your entire being. That's why I often describe it. And so it really shines a light on the places in your energetic system, mind and body, that are clenched and that are contracted and that are tight, and it starts working them. This is why I describe it as, like a massage, yes, and that can be a spectrum of experiences. You know, for a lot of people, that can be like, ah, like, there's something that, like, is so tight that something you know in your chest or your throat, that that is holding trauma, trauma. You may not even know where it came from. Are you sure? Verbal, but it's just like, you see it, and you see that the medicine is releasing it, and it's so relaxing and so, like, just melting. But then, of course, when you get a deep tissue massage, like, there also can be moments when, you know, they hit a muscle and it's like, ah, you know, like, like, Oh. Like, it's like, there's because you realize how much is stored there and the energy is releasing, there can be discomfort, there can be fear. It's kind of like taking armor off, and you can feel naked, you can feel vulnerable. And fortunately, there's a catharsis, you know, it becomes a kind of like hurt, so good thing. Or there's a release on the other side of that. But it's, it is work, you know, if I can frame it up, and it can also be playful, of course, in other dimensions. But I have to remind people of this. I mean, I try to do so much preparation of people, but it's amazing how sometimes people, you know, it's inevitable, people bring expectations to medicine. And I've had another of clients, they say, Gosh, I didn't know this would be so much work. It's not Yeah. I mean it Yeah. It's really like there's a, there is a process having to lean into discomfort and how to sit with with this. And sometimes it can be blissful, but other times it can feel like draining, you know, pus from a wound or something like that, like a kind of purgative process. So with one more time, just a

Wil Fisher  
quick just to interrupt you quickly, yeah, it's, it's interesting, because I think that when people think of working with these kinds of medicines, or, you know, some would call them drugs, right, that they might consider the recreational use of them. And so they then associated with, like, drinking alcohol or something. It's like, right? Oh no, this is something people do to go have a good time. And so if I'm going to go do it, but I want to do it for, you know, this intentional healing process, it's still going to be a good time. And it's like, not quite, exactly. I mean, it is work, yeah, very uncomfortable. I mean, good point. And absolutely, we do sometimes find, I mean, typically, for me and my experiences, I find bliss at some point, but I wouldn't say that most of it is that space. For me right now, I think that some people, after doing a lot of psychedelic work, perhaps they go to that blissful space more readily. But yeah, for me, it's challenging and unpleasant and it's work, but with very good benefits.

Mira  
Exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah. I don't think anybody does five Meo DMT recreationally, yeah, which is very telling about the nature of the molecule that it just, it doesn't lend itself to that. It's not like ketamine, it's not like MDMA. And again, I'm not saying those can't have their place in in the toolkit, right, but it's, it's really Yeah. It doesn't fuck around. I mean, it just goes, like, straight to the source. It confronts you directly with your trauma, with your embodied experience of contraction your body, and it invites that to release. And it's, it's yeah, it's very direct. And so what I tell people is that there's kind of this, this spectrum of dosing. And this is one of the reasons I love it, is because this is often called step wise in my communities of we serve this medicine in a in this series of very gentle gradations. And so if you look at my my kit, I have these different. Vape cartridges, and each one has a has a little label on it with a percentage of the concentration in there. And I usually start around 10 or 15% and then we go up in around 10% increments. So usually it goes, you know, like 20, and then 3040, 50, etc. And it's the same process where the person receives the medicine, they go into their experience, and maybe that's lasting 510, 20 minutes, and then they're coming out of it, and then we're having a conversation. Having a conversation and a check in and integration. And so we're staying very tightly, kind of on track as comparative, again, like the mushroom arc, where you can spend all these hours just in these kind of strange dream worlds that, like, sometimes, yeah, the value of this, I think, is questionable sometimes for people in terms of, like, actually, direct healing and so. So what we see in terms of the dosing spectrum, in terms of the actual effects, like, what we actually feel is as we get deeper, as I mentioned, it's like this deep tissue massage, but then at a certain point in time, the character, the flavor of the experience, starts to open up into territory that I would describe as more transpersonal, more ethereal, more cosmic. And so whereas before you felt very, very connected with your body, it can be that your body starts to dissolve. You know. Might feel your fingertips and your your toes like just, you know, dissolving into fractals. Your breath might feel like it's growing to the size of the universe. You might start losing a sense of time and space, and your usual reference points of up and down, left and right. And so there's more and more of this kind of cosmic dissolution process, and that's leading up to this climactic experience, which I try not to make too big of a thing of it, because it's not like the goal, but I think it is worth aiming towards as a place on the map. And it's, it has different names. It's often called like the full release, or sometimes like the full embrace. And it's really interesting because I yeah, I mean, these kind of, you could call it a kind of ego death, a kind of unity consciousness experience. And this can be available with different psychedelics, but there's something about five Meo where it has a very distinctive kind of punch to it for a lot of people. Often ask me, like, Well, how do I know whether it's happened or not? And I often say, Well, how do you know whether you've sneezed or, how do you know whether you've had an orgasm like it has this distinct flavor to it, for the vast majority of people, where there's this rising energy and it feels like everything is evolving, and you feel like you're just about to go on this one way, rocket ship into nothingness or Oblivion, which can be very terrifying at certain points. But then suddenly there's this moment where everything just goes kablooey, and you feel like you just merge with, I mean, people describe this in all sorts of ways, like you emerge with God. You know, fractals, the universe, pure consciousness. It's, it's sort of a paradox, because some people say, like, I had my ego completely died, I was completely gone, and then this happened, and that happened. It's like, well, clearly somebody was there, experiencing that, describing it. And so it's not, it's a little bit of a misnomer, I think, to describe it as ego death in the sense that you're not there. It's just a different kind of experience of consciousness than you're than you're used to. There's still some, I would say, you still retain throughout that experience, some sense of, I'm having an experience, just a baseline sense of subjectivity, sure, all the usual reference points that subjectivity is squeezed into on a day to day life of like this is me with all of my kind of emotional baggage and just sort of even baseline reference points of like, you know, it's this, it's like 10:30am and it's like, Sure, I'm on Earth, and there's gravity and all these things like it. Just none of that is there. So there's this experience of consciousness that feels very, very pure and very sacred, and it often just feels like pure love, no boundaries, there's no judgment, there's just business. And yes, it's deeply healing. You know, if all along the way, we've been sort of taking off these pieces of armor, it's like you finally have this kind of like, pure spiritual nudity, just nothingness and everything, like, yes, all unfolding on its own, and that's that experience. Again, I try not, because some people sort of make that like the goal. And I believe there is a spectrum of healing all along, sure, dosing, titration curve, but, but I do try to collaborate with people to go through that process, because I do think there is something uniquely special about it in that it feels, in a way, like you have died and then been reborn, or kind of become energy, and then you reincarnate back. And so I think this is just my pet theory about this, is that I think that as humans, like we naturally carry this, this fear of mortality, this fear of annihilation, annihilation anxiety. It's like, classically called, which is fine, you know, I think, I think that's like part of our biology. But I think in many of us, like the gripping around that is like so tight that it keeps us in this very tight circumference of what's possible for us in our lives. We're so constricted by fear and so when, in a sense, you know, as I was described. People is like, it's like a death VR simulator. Like, if it feels like you kind of go into the simulation where you die, and it really feels like you're gonna die, and then you come back. And I think for a lot of people, this was true for me when I first did it, there's this feeling of like, Oh, if that's what death is like, I mean, who knows what death is actually like, but if that's what death is like, like, maybe it's not so bad. Like, maybe I just return to the universe, or maybe I just become conscious. Or, who knows what happens, but there's something deep, deep, deep in your nervous system. And this was true for me, like, some hidden like, button that you didn't know is there that just sort of turns something off in you where it's just like, oh, death is not a problem, yes. Like, not that you don't retain some healthy, you know, fear of death to structure in your life, but there's some deep, deep, deep feeling of like, if I died, it would be okay, yes, yes. And then when you go through that, it does feel like it has a ripple effect, almost like a percolation up, like, for the rest of your life. Because if this annihilation anxiety is the root, perhaps, of all other fears, then it feels like it lowers the stakes and everything else. So when amazing, difficult things happen, which they will, of course, and you're still going to get upset, like it's not like a magic cure, you're still going to feel all your human emotions. But there's some fundamental sense to all of it. I would say that it's like, and it's okay, yeah, okay. That this horrible, it's okay that, you know, I have this terrible failure, this embarrassing or whatever. It's just like the global anxiety level just gets the volume turned down. And life is not easy, but it feels like much more doable to kind of lean in. And I think that's the greatest gift of five me or DMT. I often describe it to people as, like, in a phrase, I would just say, it releases the parking brake. It's like, you've had the parking brake on your whole life, and finally you found it and realized it, and you released it, and wow, you know, there's still potholes and, you know, yeah, drivers and everything else. But it's like the fun, there's some fundamental background friction that has let go, and that's huge, absolutely beautiful.

Wil Fisher  
Wow. Thank you for sharing all that, and as you shared it, I quickly realized, yeah, I've not had that experience yet, and I've sat with five Team Five, me O DMT a number of times. It was the first medicine that I sat with, not really knowing anything about it. Yeah, yeah. I sat with a really beautiful collective of queer men served by these amazing medicine women. It was a mother daughter combo. Super beautiful experience. We'd sit in the circle and someone would go to the altar in the middle, and we'd all hold space while the women served. And it was super profound. And I it's funny as as you were sharing, I was like reflecting on some of my experiences. The first one, I just said love. And I felt love. I felt this expansion and this like energy, and all I could say was love. I just said love, like, I don't know, 1000 times. I just kept saying, love, love, love, love, and and then as I think about the other experiences, often, I received a lot, a lot of lessons, a lot of lessons, and a lot of embocking things that I had a sense of, that I understood mentally, but didn't fully feel integrated and in these ideas and lessons, and I would feel them in my body. And often what that looked like for me is so it was always interesting, because I would notice that other people on the altar would mostly lie there, quiet and still. And when I took the medicine, I was like, gyrating my body. I'd have my blindfolded, but my body was going everywhere, and I'd be saying a word a bunch of times, and then I'd say a new word, and then a new word. And like, my experience with the medicine has been, yeah, very embodied. And, you know, I would talk to the medicine women and be like, Is this okay? Am I doing it wrong? And they were very loving and supportive and, and I, you know, is there a way to do it right or wrong? You know? I don't know. I wouldn't say there's a right or wrong, but I would say that there are ways to meet different intentions that you might have. And, and I was definitely receiving a lot, you know, I and when I hear you talk about that, and I also now am aware of the preparation work you do with your clients. You know those four, five sessions to prepare them and prepare their nervous system, it makes me wonder what that would be like for me. And if I would, I guess that I would have a more likely potential to meet that, that space that you're talking about. Because sometimes I wonder if me moving my body and speaking those words was somewhat of a form of resistance. I mean, I think that. I don't, it's like, it's like a yes and like it was, it was serving me. Away. I believe because I was there, I was seeing the things, and I was with them and my and it was like moving through my body and and I wonder if I'd get closer to that place of non dual, that that that that surrender into the void, if my nervous system or regulated any thoughts on that? Just curious. Yeah, thanks so

Mira  
much for these reflections. It sounds like a beautiful ceremony, and I love that you were just authentically expressing what was coming through. I think that it's yeah, people respond in such incredibly different ways to this medicine. And I've seen what you described, where there's the sometimes I call them like the Buddha type, you know, someone just lies there, very serene. And then I can't tell you how many times, I mean, I've seen just the most wild, you know, vocalizations and screamings and thrashings. I mean, I actually just was serving somebody earlier this week, and it was intense. I mean, this person was like ripping off their clothes and, like, flailing and thrashing and in situations like that, I have to be, I have to be very on the ball to, like, really make sure that somebody doesn't, you know, bump their head. I mean, there are baseline, just, like, safety concerns around that. And yeah. But to speak to your question, I it's, yeah, it's always like, I hesitate sometimes to describe too much this full release, because, again, I don't like to to presume that there is, like, one path, right, that there's this map, and it's like, here's where you're trying to get to. Because I don't know. I mean, everyone has their own process, and I think there's, there's a process that can, can occur, not just in the ceremony, but like over time, like over, like, multiple administrations, right? Sure. And I've seen, yeah, I mean, I've seen different, different kind of types, I guess, like, people go through this where sometimes it is a very, it appears very linear, where it's like somebody's just going through that spectrum. And then it's like they release more and more more, more. And then, like pop, they have their full release, and they feel much better. But for other people, it's like, very nonlinear. And sometimes I, even though I've done this with like, hundreds of people, it's like, oh, this is something new. This is not on the map. And so I don't even want to necessarily presume that this particular description of the full release that I just gave is necessarily possible, or what needs to happen, or what's going to happen for everybody, you know, because I've seen some people where, for some reason, their consciousness just shuts off, like, after a certain dosing point. And we sometimes call this, like a white out, where they just like, you know, and they come back and they're like, I don't know what happened, right? And so it's kind of an interesting thing to deal with. This was it's happening at fairly even just moderate doses. And so with some folks, I mean, it's hard to know exactly what's going on there, where it's like, I mean, some cases the dose is too high and we just need to, like, lower it. But then in other cases, there's still a moderate dose, but they're still just dropping out of consciousness. And so sometimes that deep releasing is happening, but they're not present for it. And it could be that they just need to get more used to the medicines for where the first time that happens, but then, like, the second time, they're somehow more present and more lucid through it. But then, you know, I think other people, for some reason, that's just what their nervous system does, and so they may never have this, you know, grandiose cosmic explosion thing, which is, like, Fine, like, because that's just an experience, right? That's not necessarily, you know, that just becomes a memory as soon as it's over, then we have, like, life is unfolding, right? So, but I think they still that releasing seems to be still happening, even in their unconscious, which is great, but with your question, yeah, it's really interesting when people are vocalizing and moving a lot, and it's hard to I feel like I'd have to know, know you right, and like sharing with you. And know, because I have seen it go different ways, certainly where I've seen sometimes where, even for myself. I mean, I can think of a dose I did once in Mexico of Bufo, where I was like, on all fours, making animal sounds and being wild. And it was exactly what I needed to do, because it was actually me going back to some trauma around, like my gender identity from childhood I could talk more about later. And it was, it was, it was perfect, yeah. But then I have seen some clients where, and I've actually had to give them very gentle feedback about this, where they're kind of narrating their experience, like, Oh, now this is happening, and that is happening and, and I can sense, I think this is, you know, a form of resistance, sure whether they're not, you know, I tell people what, the way the energy's coming in, like a wave, and when, when you first experience this medicine, you just want to become water. You just want to surrender. And sometimes it feels like people are getting up on the surfboard, like a little too early, and trying to, sort of like control the experience

Wil Fisher  
or or narrate it, or observing it, instead of being in

Mira  
it exactly. Yeah. And so sometimes I've had to tell people, okay, let's just try going into silence. And so it's like to not talk. And as soon as that gets people deeper, and there's there really is an arc to it, you know. And I even tell if I'm working with somebody over the long term, where we've done multiple sessions like I do think there can be, for many people, a point actually, where you're so accustomed to just becoming water, just completely dropping into the wave, that actually, at some point, getting onto the surfboard, metaphorically, is another developmental step. We're now, sure, a deeper integration, where instead of just going into this completely rarefied, non dual state, here I am back in reality, it's more like, Okay, let me actually keep my eyes open and maybe be in conversation or just be meditating. And the energy, the medicine is coming through. But I'm also still very much here in this 3d world, and so you're integrating kind of form and emptiness. So I guess I'm trying to say, I don't, I don't want to say, I couldn't say whether you're doing it right or wrong, if it is a right or wrong. But I think there's just many ways and many experiments to try.

Wil Fisher  
Yeah, I think the important thing is that for me, I'll say I was receiving something very profound and very valuable, which is why I kept coming back and receiving more lessons. And yeah, and then, you know, I had been wanting that death experience and not receiving it through that. And so when I started working with an MDMA assisted therapist, which is new for me, because all my other medicine experiences have been in group setting, ceremonies ayahuasca and five Mao and psilocybin. And so to work one on one with someone with psychedelics is a different game altogether. And again, both have value, but I do believe that doing the one on one work can go really deep. And so what, as we were preparing for the session in my dream space, and yeah, in my dream space mostly, but in conversations too, fear of death kept coming up, and so we set an intention to experience death, to explore death in the session, and this particular practitioner works with like drama therapy, and so at one point in my in my session, I'm deep in the medicine, and it just popped up. I was like, I'm ready to die. I told him that. And so he presented me with an apple, and I took a bite out of it. And then he disclosed that it was poisoned. And then I started to and he explained that you will start to feel the effects very quickly, and it's a fast death. And I, wow, and I went through this big death. And I, I, you know, bring myself down. And and then he had this really, really heavy, like giant pillow, like 10 foot pillow, and it's all and it's black. And so he placed that on me, and we had talked about working with that in advance, that maybe we'll use this pillow for something. And so that became on me, and it was just this big, heavyweight, and then he's on top of this heavy pillow, and I'm just like, I have to release, you know? And I'm fighting, I'm fighting. I'm fighting. I'm expressing my fear. I don't want to die. I don't want any crying, sobbing, scared, sad, feeling all those emotions. And then surrender. And I finally surrender, great intervention. Jeez, it was really cool. So I finally surrender, and I'm lying there in the void, and I'm seeing like beautiful I feel as if I'm a ghost, like I feel as I'm spirit. And then I get this beautiful image of this rainbow parrot and and the message was like, Oh, this is your new life. And so then I was like, I'm ready to come back. And then he also works with drag, so there's like, costuming available. And I immediately saw this beautiful rainbow tutu and placed it on and started moving like a parrot and just celebrating life like, you know, like I would, all the windows were closed, and it was like opening the blinds and being and being like, I'm alive, like, just celebrating life, you know? So, yeah, so there's other, there's, there's different ways to play with these things. But I just thought I'd share that,

Mira  
because it's fun. Oh, I love that story. I've had that experience, and that facilitator sounds incredible. I love the work they're doing. Very creative, super,

Wil Fisher  
super, amazing facilitator, yeah, and they're training me. I'm working to do MDMA assisted healing work as well. Yeah, so I'm really fortunate to find a great teacher. So one of the things that you started to touch on was exploration of gender, and I'd love to hear more about that, how psychedelics can support folks in that exploration, and perhaps you could share how it's helped you personally or some of your clients. But I feel like that's an especially important place to go on on a podcast, like really beloved, where we talk about these

Mira  
kinds of absolutely, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So when I was growing up, I just identified as well, obviously, identify as cisgender. Of course, I didn't even know what that word, yeah, but, you know, that was really the only option for me as a like a map person, was being up, being a boy, being being a man and but I always had a sense, I think, as a kid. And you can even look back at old pictures of me where I'm one of my favorite pictures of me is as a child, I'm wearing this one of my dad's T shirts, and it's so big, and it's just draping over me like a moo, moo or some kind of dress. I'm just looking so free and so happy. And I had many moments in my life where I felt that I was coloring outside the lines with gender I was always very interested in gender studies and Women's Studies. I was always interested in reading books by female authors and getting sort of more feminine perspective. And it wasn't really, though, until I started working with with mushrooms that I did a deeper exploration, investigation of gender and the wild and messy part of that was that I was also, you may have heard of this, this, you know, the so called, like Stamets stack, where you're working with, like, lion's mane and and mushrooms, you know, kind of stacking those together. And here's the weird thing, is that for a lot of people, lion's mane is just, like, a nice, like, brain tonic, or something like that. But it turns out there is this small percentage of the population, for reasons that are still unclear, have this just horrendous, like, neuro inflammatory reaction to it. There's even a whole community. A lot of people don't know this, like, it's on Reddit. It's called Lions man recovery, and there's like 65,000 people or something, gosh, members. And it's definitely like a thing where it can really destroy your life. And I'm not being hyperbolic, and this was what happened to me. So it was an interesting thing. I was I was working with mushrooms, and I was having that neuroplasticity, but also, yeah, like, it kicked up the lines been kicked up this prolonged. When I say prolonged, I mean, like, I'm still dealing with some of the side effects now, it's been, like, you know, over five years, since, since that, that last dose, but, but really, it was, it's really about two years where it was the hardest, and

Wil Fisher  
so real quickly, before you go on. And partly, this is for my sake, because I use mud water, which has lines made in it on a daily basis. Is there something that one would know right away that there's

Mira  
a, oh yeah, I would say, like, if you don't, if you feel fine, then I wouldn't worry about you're just not one of those people. But if you have this reaction, and it's hard to know what you know, is it an allergy? Is it? It's not really clear. But yeah, people ask me this all the time. They're like, Oh, should I stop taking my life? Yeah, if you're not, if you don't feel horribly sick and have brain fog again, okay, so stuff was happening that, oh, yeah, like, very quickly, you just didn't know what it was. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it took me some time to figure out what it was, and I was continuing to take Lion's Mane, not having an idea. Yeah, got it, the problem got him. But it was, it was bad. I mean, it basically my it, it felt like, basically, I received some kind of brain damage. I mean, I cognitive tempo significantly slowed down. I was having trouble understanding English, you know, I jeez. To me, the clearest sign was my kid, who, at the time, was like, six years old, and watching this show, grizzy and the Lemmings, which is sort of like an updated version of, like Tom and Jerry. It's like, this bear and these lemmings. Very simple, literally zero dialog, like, just, you know, animals. I couldn't understand the show. My brain was like, I don't know what's happening. Like, I feel like I was like, behind, that's how, how slow my in my memory, like, all these things and so, so, yeah, it was this interesting combination of, like, the mushroom work was definitely releasing a lot of shame in me. And I remember there was this particular moment where and there was the other thing is, I didn't realize that I have, like, a mushroom allergy. Like, a mushroom allergy, which I think is part of the problem as well. I have a really complex, I don't need to go all the way into this, but, like, my body is, like, really complicated, because I I only discovered in the last year or so that I have like, like, advanced neurological Lyme disease, and then I've probably had it for like, 30 years, because when I was a kid, I was I would play a lot in, you know, the Adirondacks, like the East Coast, and I at some point there was this very distinct shift around eight years old where I started to get super sick. And I've been sick, like, my entire life, and I've never known what it was. And I finally, like, got tested for Lyme disease recently, and it was like, oh, you know, very clear, like smoking gun. So anyway, I have that in the mix. So my, my whole system is very prone to inflammation, but, yeah, and so it was like, this weird thing where I was taking mushrooms, and I was having these, like, inflammatory reactions, and there was the lion's mane, and it was like, so I was having these just horrendous. Trips that were tons of nausea, like brain fog, like feeling really sick, not really knowing what was happening, which all sounds really awful. And it was, except the beautiful gift of that was that there was something about the nausea that was very centered in my gut, energetically, and I also feel like my I carried, you know, shame there very much in my body. And there was a particular trip I can think of where it felt like there was this blob of shame that was like in my gut. And it was, it was, it felt like disgusting, almost like a bag, like a colostomy bag, or something that just exploded. You know, it is like there was shit all over the room. It was all of my shame. And I think it was also particularly all of my shame around my sexuality, my gender identity. And so after that, I remember I was I felt like I had this new lease on life, because even though I was struggling so much cognitively, there was this feeling of all of a sudden, I am not burdened by shame, and also because my brain is so temporarily scrambled right now, especially linguistically, words don't have the same confining quality anymore. So words like straight or a man, you know? What does that mean? Who am I? And so I went through this period of great plasticity that was kind of scary. And yes, there was a sort of pathological component to it, but it gave me this, this new kind of license, in a way, this, like, carte blanche to, like, remake myself. And so I started to really look into my heart and my body. It was like, it was so obvious, in a way, it was like, Oh, I'm obviously not straight, and I'm obviously not cis, like, I'm weird, you know? And so very quickly, I started to experiment with, yeah, wearing. It's funny, because people describe it as, like, women's clothes, but I don't think of it that way, because I don't think of fashion as having an inherent gender. So yes, but I started wearing skirts and dresses and got my ears pierced and changed my name. It was this process over a few years, changing my pronouns and yeah, and it's been a it's been a beautiful journey, and and five Meo is also a big part of that, and I want to speak to that as well. And this is my my specialty that I haven't shared yet, is I, and it's very unusual that practitioners serve this way, but I'm one of the few people out there who provides five Meo DMT and a rectal or, you know, as I said, medicine like per rectum administration, and that was particularly key for me in terms of unlocking a lot of my gender trauma and gender shame, which is why I'm so absurdly passionate about offering it to people, because it's funny. You would think that okay, whether you're vaping it, or you're, you know, injecting it, or you're taking the, you know, it's the same molecule, it's going in your bloodstream. How really sure? But sure it is not true. There is something about receiving it rectally that not for everybody, I've found, but for a lot of people, there is a very unique experience where it seems to, and I don't know this is one of those like, who this is not research. Nobody knows exactly what's going on, but it feels to me, intuitively, like somehow receiving the medicine there is hitting into some call it whatever you want. You know, lower vagus nerve, you know, root chakra. Yes, there is some kind of bundle of of trauma that a lot of people in contractions store in their pelvic floor, which that was my case. You know, at some point I was having all these pelvic floor symptoms. I was seeing a pelvic physical therapist and all these things. And I was just so contracted and having all these problems. And I heard about a guide who one of the few guides who serves in this way, and I was, and it's admitted, cert how? Yes, the first thing so it is, you can do it different ways, but the way that I have found is best is the you can obtain the medicine in a salt form. Usually use the free base for smoking and vaping, but the salt form is water soluble. So I just take the salt form and simply dissolve it in what's called a phosphate buffered saline solution, which, you know, is just sort of normal saline, basically, for the body, the phosphate buffering just keeps the pH in a comfortable zone, and you just have a little plastic syringe. There's no needle or anything, just plastic. And lube is helpful. And I always have to clarify to clarify to people, this is self administered. So I get people, like kids, okay? I give them instructions. I leave the room. They administer. Okay? I come back when they're ready. So it's very discreet and and private in that way. Oh, wow, but yeah, but basically, it was a revelation for me. I mean, it really was. I'm not exaggerating at all. Like I had this strong intuition of, like, I need that and and when the guide gave it to me, I just it, just it just blew my mind. I mean, it felt it's hard to describe. I mean, when I told my guide at the time, I said, I feel like, God, just fucked me in the ass. Yeah. Work. Because it just. I didn't realize that, you know, years of childhood trauma, and I was, you know, I grew up in this fundamentalist Christian family Texas. You know, my whole family is very like Trump, supporting like the and I received a lot of like, corporal punishment as a child, like, especially, like to that part of my body, it was like, Spare the rod, spoil the child. So my entire pelvic floor was just like this knot of trauma. I didn't really realize that when the medicine came in, it just, it was like a rose bud that just, just like, exploded open. I literally felt like my pelvis, like, just expanded like, 10 times. It was like this, wow, opening. And all this energy was just flowing through and it had these very Kundalini dimensions where I was feeling electricity, like flowing up through my spine and out my hands, my hands. I remember I said to my guide. I was like, Can you hold my hand? Because I literally feel like my hand is like, gonna fly, grating, like buzzing, you know, anything.

Mira  
But it was incredible, and it's so it was particularly healing for me around gender, because there was a little bit after I'd come out to my family, and as you might expect, there was a lot of pushback and a lot of judgment. And so I was at this crossroads where I remember thinking like, I don't know if I can continue to stay in relationship with my family, if they're not going to even call me by my name or in any way acknowledge this transformation. But what was amazing is I felt so safe with the rectal and so transformed. I felt this deep sense of peace that I'd never felt before, and this fundamental sense of primal safety and my guide actually became almost like a symbolic father figure. Remember I was holding his hands, and his hands felt huge, as if I was dead again. Wow. And it was almost like he took on these kind of deified it was because I grew up with it was like my father, who was very, you know, traumatizing for me, plus this idea of, like the God the Father, very judgmental. But my guide actually was a fusion of both of those energies, but in this very reparative way, beautiful, where I felt like he was this just loving God, like father, like figure, he was just there for me. And I remember in that moment, having this realization of, you know, what? I have enough love in my heart and enough resilience and enough presence that I can actually continue to engage with my family and continue to love them through this, and continue to stay in relationship. And the greatest gift of that is that I really just changed my energy because I felt like I was like pushing back and wanting to convince them and argue, and I just started listening to them. And I just started listening with love and with heart, and I didn't compromise my values or anything like that. I just tried to stay in connection. And what I saw is, over a period of, you know, a couple years, like there was a huge shift. And some of this, you know, there's more to the story. Like, I also started guiding my brother with psychedelics too. Wow, which really opened him up, because this is a guy who stormed the Capitol, you know, just to give you remedy there, but he is totally supportive of my gender identity, and he's actually gotten really, woo, woo. Now, yeah, exactly more than me. I feel like hilarious, I know so so to me, like seeing how it just a light bulb came on for me in that session, it was like, Oh, my God. And it seems so simple in retrospect, like, How is everybody missing this that, like, trauma is stored in the body. We know this trauma is stored in particular parts of the body, sometimes especially the Root Chakra. I think for many people, you know, there's a reason we call people like, you know, anal or like, tight asses, because, like, sure, if people are afraid holding it and control it, they're holding it, they're literally and there's nothing in my experience more direct and more powerful than receiving five Meo DMT rectally it just like, treats it right at the source, and it just opens it up, and it's Yeah. And I think, I think especially for, you know, queer people who have trauma around their sexuality, their gender identity, a lot of times like that is the best medicine. It certainly was for me, and so that's why I serve it.

Wil Fisher  
Yeah, it sounds like such a beautiful dissolving. And you know what's interesting to me about it kind of reminds me of the death piece, where it's like you experience that and then you lose that foundation that root fear in this. What I'm seeing is how, in a way, there's a new levity around identity that becomes possible with the psychedelic use as we, as we start to explore and experience the possibility of non dualism. You know, where, where we're all one. And identity is not a thing. It almost, it almost creates a permission slip to, I don't know, like to play with identity, or to claim identity in a way that feels less heavy. Fee, does that resonate at all?

Mira  
Yeah. Oh, 100% Yeah. Because in a way, it

Wil Fisher  
seems like it seems contradictory the fact that, oh well, we're gonna have these experiences of non dualism and like we're all one and identity doesn't mean anything, and yet this helps us find our truest identity and our truest sense of authenticity and self expression, yeah, it's kind of

Mira  
Absolutely, well, that's the beautiful paradox of non dualities. It's either the, you know, the many or the one. It's some kind of, you know, Yin Yang, like fusion of the two, you know, and even just in a practical, experiential way, I mean, I talked to people about non duality, just in a sense of of the visual field, you know, where you can look at a beautiful landscape, and you can see the totality, the panorama of it, and you can simultaneously see all the trees and all the, you know, the people or whatever that's happening in the scene. And it's all one coherent Gestalt, right? And this is the essence of non duality. Is it's not some pendulum swing from the many to the one you know, from dualism, or it's, it's a, you know, kind of intersection of all those things and so, so, yeah, I do think it's, it is, it is interesting paradox that we, when we are contracted in our body and our energy, and we're afraid of death, we also cling very tightly to identity, like all these things braid together. And there's actually interesting research. I remember, I read a whole book once called the worm at the core. Called the worm at the core, and it was about this psychology research about fear of death. And there's all these different priming studies I've done with people, where it's like, the more people are primed to like reflect on their identity, even if it's just like their favorite sports team or where they grew up, or whatever, like, the more the like. Issues around fear of death tends to coincide with that, because obviously, it's like, death is the end of me. So if me is something that's very solid and boundaried, I'm like, clinging tightly to protect that, right? But, you know, there's this CO occurrence, I think, where, if the fear of death is decreased, also the fear of like, attaching to any particular identity is going to disappear, and then you just become more like the, you know, like the ocean, like you just, you know, just like a wave pattern, like flowing. And one day you could be this one, you could be that, and it gives room for play and, and I've never felt it's so funny, because it's like, after doing all these, you know, ego deaths, I get, like, experiences and meditation, all these things, somehow, there's some solid core of what I used to think was me that feels very absent, in a way where there's something, there's just sort of like a spaciousness there, where they used to be this tight kernel of something, yes, I was holding on to, but then I've also never felt more myself. Yeah.

Wil Fisher  
Love that. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Okay, so we're nearing the end of our time, and I just this is, this is more of like a I feel like it's almost like a gossipy topic. But I'm just curious if you have any take on these code of reality experiments, have you heard, oh yeah, like shining a laser on the wall, and people are in their dnt and they're seeing like characters and codes, or they're seeing the wall. And if you have no thoughts on it,

Mira  
no, it's funny. I've been through this. I actually didn't have any idea what it was. And somebody reached out to me a prospective client, and they said, You know, I want to see the code of reality. Can you guide me? And let's do, you know, a DMT session. And I was like, I have no idea this. So I had to go on YouTube. And, yeah, you know, I this gets back to my neuroscience geekiness, like, you know, I try to approach everything with a kind of, what would you say, intellectual humility, where it's like, like, ultimately, how can I say I don't know. So I have to claim a certain agnosticism about any of these things. Could it be that, you know, we're in some matrix and people are actually seeing through maybe? I mean, I can't rule it out, right? But what do I think is more likely? You know, that's where I kind of fall back on these, you know, at the end of the day, like you could describe these, especially DMT, which is the NN DMT. It's a very powerful hallucinogenic substance that we know, like, affects your visual system, right? So you tend to see fractals. You tend to, you know, and you know. So to me, it's not surprising at all. And I've had experiences like this too, where you can be looking at, you know, any kind of like visual noise or visual experience. And if you're on something like DMT, like, there's all sorts of like things your mind can, like, generate, sure noise, that could be faces, that can be entities, sure could be all sorts of things and so and then you know, if we bring in like social psychology research, you have like, contagion effects. And yes, this isn't like a double blind Yes, yes, of course. You know, if one person, or a handful of people are like, Hey, I saw this code, you should too. It looks like this. You're gonna see it. You look at the laser and like you're priming the mind to see it. And so that, to me, is like, more likely. So it's not surprising to me at all that people are seeing something that looks like a code to me that's easily explained. I mean, I've seen all sorts of wild stuff on psychedelics. I. I've, you know, I've done it all. I've, like, met aliens, or going other dimensions, all these things. I personally don't attribute, like, an ontological reality to those things. I could be totally wrong. It could be that I actually have communed with, sure, no deities, like, who knows, but? But to me, I mean, yeah, to me, I don't treat it as any different, just in my own personal cosmology, like, different than looking up at the clouds and seeing a face in the clouds, or, like meeting a character in a dream, like, these are beautiful archetypes that my mind is creating, that I can commune with and interact with and learn from. I don't personally, I think that like when I see a face in the clouds, like there's an actual, yeah, ontological being there, sure. So that's just my take. So, yeah, thank you. I guess at the end of the day, I'm a little bit skeptical.

Wil Fisher  
Thank you. Yeah, awesome. Yeah, thanks for going there. I realize it's, you know, it's just a little, it's like, it's a little, like, gossipy, but it's like, it's just, it's an interesting thing that's that people are talking about right now and ever Yeah, everyone's like, buying these lasers at Home Depot and like, doing these experiments. It's like, or you could actually use this medicine to, like, you know, do some deep healing work. But, you know, whatever, yeah, I

Mira  
was telling this guy, I had to, he was really into a little distracting, you know, yeah, I had to let him down easy. I was like, you know, I totally support whatever you want to do. I don't think this is my jam, because, for sure, it's Yeah, and this is sort of the non dual integration piece, where I Yeah, certainly, in these medicines, you can have these special, rarefied experiences, but yeah, at the end of the day, it's like, that's over. And then you have life, and you're, you know, working on your taxes, and you're going to the dentist or whatever, and it's like, how do you bring that non dual awareness into anything? Not like some special little laser setup, but just like, yes, looking at your computer while you're writing an email, can you see the nature of consciousness there? That's the challenge, I think. Yeah, yeah,

Wil Fisher  
beautiful, Yeah, amazing. This conversation has been so fun and so insightful. And I'm curious if there's any final words you want to leave with the listeners. I would

Mira  
just say, if anybody's curious about five Meo DMT, I really think it's worth exploring whether you've already done a lot of other psychedelics and you think, oh, you know, I've already seen it all. Like there is something unique about five Meo that I think it because it's so fast and so pre verbal, it can unlock layers of trauma that and healing that are not available in other other routes. And then for people who have never tried psychedelics before, I love that your first experience was with five Meo. I personally, I'm some people disagree with me. It's a little iconoclastic, but I think five Meo is the best to start with, for many people, because you can dose it so low, and you can stop at any time. That's a wonderful thing. If somebody is like, whoa, I'm getting into some stuff that feels a little scary. It's like, okay, we don't have to go any farther. And that's what I think it's so trauma informed. So I would encourage people to have it on their radar. And yeah, and they can contact me if they have any more questions about that.

Wil Fisher  
Yeah, absolutely. And consider doing the one on one work. You know, that's something that has been new for me, and it's just so powerful. But yeah, I'm super grateful it was my introduction. And I thought it was a perfect introduction, because it also allowed me to go really, really deep into really far off places, but knowing that it's temporary and that I can handle 15 minutes, even if it doesn't feel like 15 minutes.

Mira  
Yeah, feel like 15 minutes,

Wil Fisher  
yeah, yeah. Well, thank you again. So much. It's been such

Mira  
a pleasure. This has been great. It's been a lot of fun.